Merged Bitcoin - Part 3

[ChrisBFRPKY]

Or even for humans.

I am trying to do my bit with an electric car. Lately I have also been biking and walking more to save even more energy (and keep fit). But with the opening up it's not so pleasant now. The noise and the smell of gas cars racing around the city is quite obnoxious, and I wish we were back in full lockdown. Will we just go back to destroying the environment so we can buy more stuff?

I was walking back from the local electronics store yesterday, dodging cars and trying to avoid the fumes - when I realized that a time may come when I will welcome leaving this world.

Unless you have your own solar panels, that electric car runs on coal and natural gas. (Some of those fumes you were breathing in.)

I can't speak for overseas mining operations but in the US most BTC miners have widely adopted solar power as a means to power their operations. BTC mining is likely a healthy part of new large scale solar installations here. Without the addition of solar power, BTC mining is not profitable here.

Nothing better for the environment than turning sunshine into money. I suppose miners do sell some of their excess solar electricity for charging electric cars etc...

Chris B.

 

[Mycroft]

I can't speak for overseas mining operations but in the US most BTC miners have widely adopted solar power as a means to power their operations.

Evidence?

Nothing better for the environment than turning sunshine into money. I suppose miners do sell some of their excess solar electricity for charging electric cars etc...

One thing that would be better for the environment would be using that sunshine to reduce the demand for electricity so that those coal and natural gas plants wouldn't have to produce as much.

 

[psionl0]

Evidence?



One thing that would be better for the environment would be using that sunshine to reduce the demand for electricity so that those coal and natural gas plants wouldn't have to produce as much.

I agree.

 

[ChrisBFRPKY]

Evidence?



One thing that would be better for the environment would be using that sunshine to reduce the demand for electricity so that those coal and natural gas plants wouldn't have to produce as much.

https://news.bitcoin.com/bitcoin-mi...and-more-profitable-than-selling-to-the-grid/

I use solar as well. Originally it was to save money on the electric bill but later after I discovered the added benefit of offsetting mining costs 2013-14, I added more panels and a 2nd location.

Solar is cheap at the moment. You can find 250 watt panels used for less than $50 each in the US. If you have your own property it's foolish not to have a few panels installed. Return on investment is very quick.

Chris B.

 

[psionl0]

https://news.bitcoin.com/bitcoin-mi...and-more-profitable-than-selling-to-the-grid/

I use solar as well. Originally it was to save money on the electric bill but later after I discovered the added benefit of offsetting mining costs 2013-14, I added more panels and a 2nd location.

Solar is cheap at the moment. You can find 250 watt panels used for less than $50 each in the US. If you have your own property it's foolish not to have a few panels installed. Return on investment is very quick.

Chris B.

I think you are missing the point. The solar electricity that you use to mine for bitcoins is solar electricity that is not being exported to the grid.

The excess solar electricity generated by households can do much to reduce the generating requirements of the power companies but not if householders keep that electricity to mine for bitcoins.

 

[Roger Ramjets]

The excess solar electricity generated by households can do much to reduce the generating requirements of the power companies but not if householders keep that electricity to mine for bitcoins.

Most 'renewable energy' Bitcoins are mined in China, the biggest producer of greenhouse gasses in the World. China is installing more solar and nuclear, but in the mean time they are burning coal. So every kWh of renewable energy diverted to mining Bitcoin there is directly contributing to pollution.

Bitcoiners could 'greenwash' their hobby by producing enough solar power to compensate, but only if they live in China or stop buying Chinese made goods. Economically it doesn't make sense though. Better to just use the electricity to lower your power bill and sell the excess. More efficient and a much more stable income!

 

[psionl0]

Better to just use the electricity to lower your power bill and sell the excess.

Not where my local power company is concerned. They pay me 7c per unit for my excess electricity and sell it to my next door neighbour for 28c per unit! Then they have the nerve to say that they are "subsidizing" me because I don't buy as much of their electricity any more.

That's why I have recently installed batteries. I'm keeping my solar electricity to myself.

 

[Samson]

Meanwhile bitcoin is poised to crash below production cost of 7k.

That is why Buffet and Munger see rat poison.

 

[ChrisBFRPKY]

Meanwhile bitcoin is poised to crash below production cost of 7k.

That is why Buffet and Munger see rat poison.

That would be great! Fewer miners means the difficulty will drop again.

Buffet lost billions on oil stocks. I wouldn't ask him advice on how to cross the street.

Chris B.

 

[psionl0]

Meanwhile bitcoin is poised to crash below production cost of 7k.

I can't find any reliable data on how much electricity is currently needed to mine a bitcoin on average so your figure for "production cost" is about as reliable as your predictions of future bitcoin prices - ZERO.

 

[ChrisBFRPKY]

Not where my local power company is concerned. They pay me 7c per unit for my excess electricity and sell it to my next door neighbour for 28c per unit! Then they have the nerve to say that they are "subsidizing" me because I don't buy as much of their electricity any more.

That's why I have recently installed batteries. I'm keeping my solar electricity to myself.

The batteries are a smart move. Did you go with lead acid or lithium?

My electric company does not "buy" any extra power I produce. They allow me "credits" toward my next bill if there is an excess. I check the meter near the end of the month and either activate or deactivate miners.

I have read and watched videos of horror stories about local utilities in different states doing funny things with solar power producers. One area, the utility company was paying the solar producer .02 per KWH and selling it back to him at .12 per KWH. His solar power went out to the electric company thru one meter and his shop purchased electricity thru a seperate meter. He was outraged! I would have been too.

I think he did correct the situation with some rewiring of loads. It was an EV conversion shop guy on youtube. I think he is in Missouri, I can't remember the details but it's worth a watch if you do a little searching. Funny guy!

Chris B.

 

[Roger Ramjets]

I check the meter near the end of the month and either activate or deactivate miners

So you mine your own Bitcoins? How many miners do you have, and how many Bitcoins do you make per year?

 

[Roger Ramjets]

I can't find any reliable data on how much electricity is currently needed to mine a bitcoin on average so your figure for "production cost" is about as reliable as your predictions of future bitcoin prices - ZERO.

Weasel words and an invalid conclusion.

Why The Actual Cost Of Mining Bitcoin Can Leave It Vulnerable To A Deep Correction

Bitcoin has become more affordable to mine in recent weeks due to two main factors: difficulty adjustments and cheaper electricity in Sichuan, China due to the rainy season...

With $0.04/kwh, miners based in China said that the breakeven cost to mine Bitcoin hovers in the $5,000 to $6,000 range.

Even individual miners running commercial mining equipment like the Antminer S9 is operating at a breakeven cost of $8,206.

“To be completely accurate: Given current difficulty, 0.04$/kWh and S9 running custom firmware bringing it down to 71W per TH efficiency. The cost to mine 1 BTC is $8206.64. Meaning its still profitable,” one miner said.

Like any commodity, the price of Bitcoin tends to stabilize around the total cost of production. If production costs go up then the price must also go up (until it becomes so expensive that people move to other alternatives). If costs go down then the price can also go down.

Of course this only applies if the product has perceived value. One day Bitcoin may become redundant for one reason or another (eg. 'investors' move on to something with better returns, or a better technology eclipses it) and then the price could crash to ZERO because unlike physical commodities like gold it has virtually no aesthetic appeal.

 

[Dr.Sid]

Weasel words and an invalid conclusion.

Why The Actual Cost Of Mining Bitcoin Can Leave It Vulnerable To A Deep Correction

Like any commodity, the price of Bitcoin tends to stabilize around the total cost of production. If production costs go up then the price must also go up (until it becomes so expensive that people move to other alternatives). If costs go down then the price can also go down.

Of course this only applies if the product has perceived value. One day Bitcoin may become redundant for one reason or another (eg. 'investors' move on to something with better returns, or a better technology eclipses it) and then the price could crash to ZERO because unlike physical commodities like gold it has virtually no aesthetic appeal.

Why ZERO ? Even without investors, bitcoin can be still used to buy child pornography and drugs or finance terrorism. That's certainly non-zero volume market.

 

[psionl0]

Weasel words and an invalid conclusion.

Why The Actual Cost Of Mining Bitcoin Can Leave It Vulnerable To A Deep Correction

The estimated cost to mine a bitcoin varies from web site to web site.

It should be so simple. Given the estimated total average power being used globally to mine for bitcoins, you multiply that by 1/6 hours and divide by 6.25 bitcoins to get the number of KWh needed to mine a single bitcoin.

But do you think that any web site will give you raw data like that? No. All you get is pre-digested conclusions.

Like any commodity, the price of Bitcoin tends to stabilize around the total cost of production. If production costs go up then the price must also go up (until it becomes so expensive that people move to other alternatives). If costs go down then the price can also go down.

You are making this efficient market hypothesis backwards. The cost of mining bitcoin depends on the price of bitcoin (or its perceived long term price). If the price of bitcoin rises then more miners will find it profitable to join the fray thus pushing up the production cost and if the price of bitcoin falls then some existing miners will find that producing bitcoin is unprofitable and drop out thus lowering the production cost for other miners.

Of course this only applies if the product has perceived value. One day Bitcoin may become redundant for one reason or another (eg. 'investors' move on to something with better returns, or a better technology eclipses it) and then the price could crash to ZERO because unlike physical commodities like gold it has virtually no aesthetic appeal.

Weasel words and an invalid conclusion.

 

[psionl0]

The batteries are a smart move. Did you go with lead acid or lithium?

I use lithium batteries. They can be discharged down to 10% without damage. The batteries include some smart electronics that determines the optimum mix of battery and grid electricity when the sun isn't shining. It also includes sophisticated online monitoring of the state of the system.

So far, I have 5.8 Kwh of storage. It is barely enough to last a long (by Australian standards) winter's night if no heavy duty appliances are switched on and the batteries got enough sunlight to fully charge. I will monitor the system for a year and then decide if additional batteries are warranted.

 

[Samson]

It is nice to see a developing technical picture that accords with common sense, infinite supply leads to zero value.
A gold bar can be used for self defence but a website that unexpectedly disappears without recourse is an alluring idea for the anti avarice disciples still straggling to keep up.

 

[Dr.Sid]

It is nice to see a developing technical picture that accords with common sense, infinite supply leads to zero value.
A gold bar can be used for self defence but a website that unexpectedly disappears without recourse is an alluring idea for the anti avarice disciples still straggling to keep up.

Bitcoin is not 'a website that unexpectedly disappears'

 

[ponderingturtle]

Why ZERO ? Even without investors, bitcoin can be still used to buy child pornography and drugs or finance terrorism. That's certainly non-zero volume market.

But does this create enough demand to keep the miners going to support the block chain to keep it going? My understanding was that the miners provided the infrastructure needed to keep bitcoin working, and so if mining is not profitable who will keep it all going at a loss for the drug runners and terrorists?

 

[psionl0]

But does this create enough demand to keep the miners going to support the block chain to keep it going? My understanding was that the miners provided the infrastructure needed to keep bitcoin working, and so if mining is not profitable who will keep it all going at a loss for the drug runners and terrorists?

You clearly don't understand the algorithm.

The mining difficulty adjusts to keep the block generation rate constant. If the vast majority of miners said "**** it" and quit, the mining difficulty would become so easy that it would still be profitable for the remaining miners even it the price collapsed to a small fraction of its current value. How do you think that bitcoin grew in those early years when the price was virtually nil?