Merged Bitcoin - Part 3

[psionl0]

You've missed my point: a crypto cannot have a stable value, because as soon as people believe it will not increase in value it stabilizes fewer people will want it and its value will drop, making fewer people want it...until no one wants it.

ftfy. Quote yourself properly!

And it is still made up BS for the reason I gave earlier. Some speculators may sell a "stable" currency to buy an asset with a higher potential gain but OTOH more people would be willing to accept it as payment for their wares.

 

[Ivor the Engineer]

ftfy. Quote yourself properly!

And it is still made up BS for the reason I gave earlier. Some speculators may sell a "stable" currency to buy an asset with a higher potential gain but OTOH more people would be willing to accept it as payment for their wares.

There is no stable value. Crypto can either rise or fall in value. Once the potential gains diminish speculators will sell en-masse and the value will plummet. No one is going to want to buy it. Even so called stablecoins only have finite resources to maintain their value. The ERM crisis shows that trying to peg one currency against another is not feasible even for state-backed currencies.

 

[jeremyp]

Yeah right. That is what you meant.


Still made up BS. Every object of speculation works on the same "belief".

Other objects of speculation have value for people who aren't speculators.

Are you really going to hang your entire argument on a grammatical technicality? The software for bitcoin is open source. Happy?

No. I'm pointing out that your understanding of what software is and the implications of open source software is minimal. If you don't want me to draw that conclusion from your posts, you should not make trivial mistakes.

 

[psionl0]

There is no stable value.

Then why did you post about "the moment a crypto currency stabilizes"?

Crypto can either rise or fall in value. Once the potential gains diminish speculators will sell en-masse and the value will plummet. No one is going to want to buy it.

No matter how often you post this crap it is just pure made-up BS and it has been BS every time some idiot posted something similar over the last 15 years.

The price of bitcoin has plummeted several times in its history (with no indication that its price would rise again) and yet people always wanted to buy it.

 

[psionl0]

Other objects of speculation have value for people who aren't speculators.

So what?

Are you really going to hang your entire argument on a grammatical technicality?

No. I'm pointing out that your understanding of what software is and the implications of open source software is minimal. If you don't want me to draw that conclusion from your posts, you should not make trivial mistakes. Yes.

ftfy.

 

[Ivor the Engineer]

Then why did you post about "the moment a crypto currency stabilizes"?

I agree it was sloppy language on my part. What we're talking about is expectations, which are only partially informed by rational thought in the short term.

No matter how often you post this crap it is just pure made-up BS and it has been BS every time some idiot posted something similar over the last 15 years.

The price of bitcoin has plummeted several times in its history (with no indication that its price would rise again) and yet people always wanted to buy it.

But there presumably was an expectation it would rise, or why would people not invest in something else that was expected to increase in value? It's not like Bitcoin is a rational choice to store value, particularly if it has just plummeted in value!

Crypto represents human irrationality in its purest form.

 

[Gord_in_Toronto]

A highly speculative investment or a stable substitute for currency in doing business?

 

[jeremyp]

So what?

That's the whole point. Speculators can lose all interest in gold but you'll still be able to sell it to people who want to make jewellery or circuit boards, which also means that speculators will never lose all interest in gold.

The same does not apply to cryptocurrencies and, in fact, almost all of them have gone to zero.

ftfy.

Lol. You made a fundamental mistake about the nature of software and how open source works and you want to call it a grammatical error. Then there's this:

Then why did you post about "the moment a crypto currency stabilizes"?

Physician heal thyself.

 

[psionl0]

That's the whole point. Speculators can lose all interest in gold but you'll still be able to sell it to people who want to make jewellery or circuit boards, which also means that speculators will never lose all interest in gold.

Yeah. Speculators buy gold bullion because if all else fails, they can make jewellery out of it.

 

[Gord_in_Toronto]

Yeah. Speculators buy gold bullion because if all else fails, they can make jewellery out of it.

I think they actually do it in the expectation they can sell it later at a higher price. You know; just like a crypto.

Your expectations may or may not come true.

 

[psionl0]

I think they actually do it in the expectation they can sell it later at a higher price. You know; just like a crypto.

Hence the roll-eyes emoji. The notion that it is better to speculate in gold than in crypto because you can make jewellery out of gold is stupid.

Gold may be a safer instrument of speculation but bitcoin has shown spectacular gains in the past.

 

[dirtywick]

I think they actually do it in the expectation they can sell it later at a higher price. You know; just like a crypto.

Your expectations may or may not come true.

the expectation is well founded though, as the higher price is derived from the labor they put into the gold. there is no such mechanism available for crypto. simply hope alone.

edit


it’s the same for electronics. it’s demand comes from use as a raw material for these applications and the increased value comes from the labor. if crypto could be used as a raw material and altered in some way to account for labor input its comparison to gold would be more valid. but it’s not so its pure speculative

 

[steenkh]

the expectation is well founded though, as the higher price is derived from the labor they put into the gold. there is no such mechanism available for crypto. simply hope alone.

I thought that Proof of Work was exactly that. You can’t use a BitCoin for anything than the exchange lottery, but it certainly has cost a lot of work and energy to produce.

 

[dirtywick]

I thought that Proof of Work was exactly that. You can’t use a BitCoin for anything than the exchange lottery, but it certainly has cost a lot of work and energy to produce.

could you imagine if gold was considered valuable because the vault doors you stored them in were really complex to open?

interestingly, that gold is cumbersome to move around and requires a lot of energy to do so is one of the cons of its use as a currency offset by its other desirable qualities.

 

[steenkh]

could you imagine if gold was considered valuable because the vault doors you stored them in were really complex to open?

No, I can’t, and I can’t see the relevance, because it is not the weight of the vault doors, but the cost of producing the gold that is the basis of the value of gold (before speculation).

All I was saying is that Bitcoins are also expensive to mine. Opening your wallet to acccess them is very cheap.

 

[dirtywick]

No, I can’t, and I can’t see the relevance, because it is not the weight of the vault doors, but the cost of producing the gold that is the basis of the value of gold (before speculation).

All I was saying is that Bitcoins are also expensive to mine. Opening your wallet to acccess them is very cheap.

checking your wallet balance is cheap, they're expensive to exchange. that's also where the mining happens, hence the comparison to accessing gold through a difficult vault. it's an imperfect comparison of course, because they're different and really shouldn't be compared.

How Does Bitcoin Mining Work? A Beginner's Guide

Bitcoin miners and mining are required for new bitcoins to enter into circulation. Mining is also a critical component of the security of the blockchain ledger.

www.investopedia.com

in any case, you have that wrong. the value of jewelry as it relates to gold is accounting for the labor input, the crafting of the jewelry. that's what makes it worth more than it's weight in gold, it accounts for the labor of the jeweler. there is no mechanism to do that with bitcoin, that's the difference, and why bitcoin treasuries will all eventually fail. you can acquire bitcoin, and then there's nothing to do with it.

 

[Opcode]

the expectation is well founded though, as the higher price is derived from the labor they put into the gold. there is no such mechanism available for crypto. simply hope alone.

edit


it’s the same for electronics. it’s demand comes from use as a raw material for these applications and the increased value comes from the labor. if crypto could be used as a raw material and altered in some way to account for labor input its comparison to gold would be more valid. but it’s not so its pure speculative

One of the unique and alarming aspects of cryptocurrency is that it has unhooked monetary assets from wealth creation. Dollars and other fiat currency are earned through wealth creation (you exchange work for money). Stocks represent shares in wealth creation. Cryptocurrency represents nothing.

 

[Opcode]

No, I can’t, and I can’t see the relevance, because it is not the weight of the vault doors, but the cost of producing the gold that is the basis of the value of gold (before speculation).

All I was saying is that Bitcoins are also expensive to mine. Opening your wallet to acccess them is very cheap.

As a photographer, I've sometimes read of photographers who justify their prices based on what their equipment cost. The reply from other professional photographers is that the money spent on equipment and training is irrelevant to the fair value of the photograph. Spending $3k on a camera doesn't make a photo more valuable than spending $100 on a camera. What makes the photo valuable is the inherent quality of the photo, particularly how much the prospective customer wants the photo.

The main reason that Bitcoin and other cryptocurrencies fetch high prices is the perception of value built up in the public's mind. That perception is almost entirely an illusion. Cryptocurrency offers no advantage or benefit over conventional money for law-abiding people. In fact, cryptocurrency presents enormous risk to anyone who uses it, risk that is mitigated in conventional currency. Regardless of the expense of producing a cryptocurrency coin--that is, a block of numbers--that expense is irrelevant to the value of the coin.

 

[dirtywick]

M

As a photographer, I've sometimes read of photographers who justify their prices based on what their equipment cost. The reply from other professional photographers is that the money spent on equipment and training is irrelevant to the fair value of the photograph. Spending $3k on a camera doesn't make a photo more valuable than spending $100 on a camera. What makes the photo valuable is the inherent quality of the photo, particularly how much the prospective customer wants the photo.

The main reason that Bitcoin and other cryptocurrencies fetch high prices is the perception of value built up in the public's mind. That perception is almost entirely an illusion. Cryptocurrency offers no advantage or benefit over conventional money for law-abiding people. In fact, cryptocurrency presents enormous risk to anyone who uses it, risk that is mitigated in conventional currency. Regardless of the expense of producing a cryptocurrency coin--that is, a block of numbers--that expense is irrelevant to the value of the coin.

i agree, and if you think about it in the terms of currency, the proof of work and scarcity, the things that supposedly give it value, also mean it's expensive to exchange and doesn't expand with the economy. well, it's actually an investment, not a currency, it's a commodity with no use. no no, it's a hedge against inflation that fluctuates wildly in price. none of it works

but this has been covered by the thread over and over. but you know what you won't find in the thread? all the great bitcoin news and projects making the world a better place. just scam after scam and an irrational belief that you'll never run out of new investors.

 

[steenkh]

There are lots of things where value is not dependent on work. Take paintings: if a Rembrandt painting is found out to be painted by someone else, the value plummets. If a piece of silverware can be shown to come from the Titanic, the value soars.

And then we have gems that are worth a fortune, but if they happen to be made artificially, the value is much less, although they are practically indistinguishable from the gems. In this case, the value seems to be connected to the work involved.