Bioelectromagnetics

[BillHoyt]

Funny. I had no difficulty in finding this and other studies by Kato's group in Entrez Pubmed!

Dodger,

Funny you should mention this. It reminds me of something. Oh, yes: When will we see your "paper" listed in PubMed? What journal will that listing cite? What is the approximate date of publication?

 

[Prester John]

Why do you think there should only be one mechanism? We use electricity in a variety of ways today (e.g. radio, power, etc), and so do multicellular organisms: e.g. signal transduction, ATP synthesis, immune surveillance, regulation of heart beat rate, etc.

I think equating human usage of elecrticity to cellular processes invloving eg electron transfers, and binding of molecules is a little disingenious. You also introduce at least one more unsubstansiated claim. Immune survellance is not an electrically modulated process. It is done in humans in association with the MHC class of molecules. You have not presented any evidence, or even any particular detail about your ideas on this subject.

Same old same old..

 

[MRC_Hans]

Why do you think there should only be one mechanism? We use electricity in a variety of ways today (e.g. radio, power, etc), and so do multicellular organisms: e.g. signal transduction, ATP synthesis, immune surveillance, regulation of heart beat rate, etc.

I don't, but we need to have a few (a few dozen, actually ) things cleared up about the mechanisms presented so far.

Hans

 

[Pragmatist]

The study in question was only published in its entirety in Italian. Of course w.r.t the Melatonin studies in rats, we're arguing about what causes an effect whose existence is still under debate (you see, I don't know whether power lines cause cancer because the studies I've seen are inconclusive).

Do you have a secret reserve of studies to which you can provide access (or at least point out whether you've previously referenced them in this thread) and which have not yet been superceded which indicate that there is an effect like the one you describe.


Of course the real debate actually relates to the products you endorse.

We started off by attempting to demonstrate that the magnetic devices you promote and sell are useless. We've just got sidetracked (among other things) into a discussion about whether there's even a thing from which the geegaws can protect us.

You're forgetting of course that the burden of proof is on US. Roger makes a claim and it is our responsibility to DISPROVE it. Roger doesn't have to prove HIS claims.

This is because Roger sets all the rules. And because he's the expert. And he's always right.

Just thought I'd clear that up!

 

[MRC_Hans]

"magnetic fields are ALWAYS closed loops WITHOUT POLES. So how can you "polarize" something that doesn't have any poles?"

Tell that to the marines. They use magnetic compasses for navigation.

OMG! That's one for the list!

You are outdoing yourself.

Hans

 

[BillHoyt]

Following Bradford Hill's line you need all of these to identify causation. Epi studies only report association, not causation.

Excuse me? Epidemiological studies do not only report associations, sir. Hill's criteria require rigor in the associations measured and biological plausibility.

 

[MRC_Hans]

So Roger uses studies of fields in the order of 2,000 to 20,000 V/m, to back his claims in the range 20-70 V/m. Go figure .

The kV fields are from powerlines, not those inside the body! Such kV fields around home can produce 70V/m fields even inside the home, despite walls being in the way.

No. The experiments you cite involved exposure of rats to 2-20kV/m fields. The fields inside a home are (as you acknowledge) up to 70V/m, in other words several orders of magnitude lower. Now explain how the experiments are relevant for the 70V/m fields.

"inside the body"? Roger, for the umphteenth time: There are no fields inside the conductive body!

Hans

 

[EHocking]

I am not going to have much time next week since I am going to Istanbul for the WHO meeting on EMF hazards...

Since you're not on the draft agenda as a presenter at this Workshop,
<http://www.who.int/peh-emf/meetings/en/Draftagenda110504.pdf>
and you have hinted at preparing a paper for the Meeting, can I presume that you are merely going to be presenting 3 mins during one of the discussion periods? Or are you preparing a poster? <http://www.who.int/peh-emf/meetings/children_turkey_june2004/en/>
In any case, the deadline for abstracts was April. Care to share your abstract with us if you are presenting anything at the Workshop?

 

[Cleopatra]

Thank you very much for taking the time to compose this post Pragmatist, I really appreciate it. I have to confess though that I have been searching for my jaw on the floor since I read the last paragraph:

He keeps on about electric field components. But he doesn't understand what electric fields are or how they behave. When he tells everyone that they are so dangerous, he is ignorant of the fact that most of those fields will never even REACH the inside of the body. That is why none of the authorities think they are significant, THEY know that they don't do what Roger thinks. But Roger doesn't know that - and doesn't WANT to know that. He'd rather invent a ludicrous conspiracy theory than simply admit that he is the only one who doesn't actually understand the problem.

How is this possible that he doesn't know that?

Mr. Coghill what do you have to say about that?

Also, please tell me where do you plan to publish your survey about magnets and dysmenorrhea? If you don't reply to this question you leave the door wide open for almost safe conclusions regarding your scientific ethics ( although I do have an opinion on those by the way you have worded your challenge) but here we are talking about a blunt deception of the general public.

Please reply to that question.

 

[MRC_Hans]

Well, lets wait for the referendum after the meeting. I'm sure Roger's name will be mentioned in it. At least in the list of participants.

Hans

 

[cogreslab]

From Prag:

Joking aside, perhaps, since you clearly have no difficulty, you would care to simply tell us what the experimental setup was that produced the alleged "polarized magnetic fields"?

If you are really serious, and not simply trying to prove that I am ignorant, I will happily send you a photocopy of the full text of Kato and Shigemitsu, pp337 to 376 in the Melatonin Hypothesis (1997), so you can evaluate their work for yourself. Spending the time typing it out is not an option.

 

[cogreslab]

To Cleopatra:

Prag's comment "When he tells everyone that they are so dangerous, he is ignorant of the fact that most of those fields will never even REACH the inside of the body". is sadly wrong.

For starters the way mobile phones are assessed for impact on users is a statistic called "Specific Absorption Rate ("SAR"), which estimates the level of electric field inside the body as a result of the phone, and using a formula which incorporates conductivity of tissues et alia produces an SAR value for cellphone types. (There is a lot wrong with this approach, but that's another issue). My Motorola phone has an official SAR of 0.9 W/kg for example. The limit is the US (ANSI) is 1.6 W/kg from memory, and in Europe I thinkm it's 2.0 W/kg but this depends on a number of factors e.g frequency. So to say these fields never get inside the body goes against the way all the cellphones in the world are presently evaluated for health impact. These are RF/MW radiations, of course, but ELF fields, being a much lower frequency, are much more penetrative of water (of which we are largely made) which is why the US and other navies chose 76Hz (an ELF frequency), for their communications with submarines.

 

[cogreslab]

To Cleopatra:

Also, please tell me where do you plan to publish your survey about magnets and dysmenorrhea? If you don't reply to this question you leave the door wide open for almost safe conclusions regarding your scientific ethics ( although I do have an opinion on those by the way you have worded your challenge) but here we are talking about a blunt deception of the general public.

I don't know when the study is to be published: it was a joint study and the pubklication is being organised elsewhere. It very much depends on when the journal has space, and sometimes this can be a year or two off.

 

[The Don]

To Cleopatra:

Prag's comment "When he tells everyone that they are so dangerous, he is ignorant of the fact that most of those fields will never even REACH the inside of the body". is sadly wrong.

For starters the way mobile phones are assessed for impact on users is a statistic called "Specific Absorption Rate ("SAR"), which estimates the level of electric field inside the body as a result of the phone, and using a formula which incorporates conductivity of tissues et alia produces an SAR value for cellphone types. (There is a lot wrong with this approach, but that's another issue). My Motorola phone has an official SAR of 0.9 W/kg for example. The limit is the US (ANSI) is 1.6 W/kg from memory, and in Europe I thinkm it's 2.0 W/kg but this depends on a number of factors e.g frequency. So to say these fields never get inside the body goes against the way all the cellphones in the world are presently evaluated for health impact. These are RF/MW radiations, of course, but ELF fields, being a much lower frequency, are much more penetrative of water (of which we are largely made) which is why the US and other navies chose 76Hz (an ELF frequency), for their communications with submarines.

I think that it's disingenuous to talk about EMF (<100Hz) and microwaves as being analogous w.r.t. the effect on the human body. After all, glass is an admirable transmitter of visible light but is very poor at transmitting ultra-violet.

 

[Pragmatist]

In any case, the deadline for abstracts was April. Care to share your abstract with us if you are presenting anything at the Workshop?

Here it is:

Induction of Fear and Panic in Human Populations by Means of a Kettle Lead

Dr* RW Coghill MA (Cantab.) C Biol. MI Biol. MA (Environ Mgt)
Coghill Research Laboratories
Pontypool

Abstract

This study shows conclusively that a common kettle lead can be used to induce panic states in human (non mammalian) subjects. A test individual was exposed to a kettle lead in a controlled environment at 20 C which had no ELF fields due to water baths and which was heated solely by an electric heater. When shown the kettle lead and presented with the information that kettle leads kill babies, the subject displayed signs of increased adrenaline flow, including changes in breathing pattern, widening of eyes etc. It is hypothesized that this response is entirely due to electric fields of 20V/m induced in the subject by the kettle lead. Although the kettle lead was not actually plugged in, the authors have proven conclusively that an electric field was present in the lead due to quantum vortex transduction through Far Infra Red radiation mediated by implosion devices in the near field, and modulated by nearby moth spectrophotometers. Although only one subject was used, and only one test performed, he was counted 10,000 times and therefore represents a sample size of 10,000 leading to statistical confidence in the results. Analysis of the data strongly indicated a 100% response and as such the results may be comfortably extrapolated to the entire human population. Who are not animals, or mammals, but bacteria are. We need to state this because we do not do animal experiments. The results prove conclusively that the dangers of electric fields in kettle leads have been deliberately concealed by the NRPB and other agencies as part of a larger conspiracy.

* Disclaimer: any attribution of titles such as "Dr" are not the responsibility of the author, but are due to tampering and retyping of the manuscript by third parties who are probably involved in the conspiracy.

 

[cogreslab]

The Don said (elsewhere than this thread):

[|Coghill's] theory states (I think) that EM waves makes lymphocites go "wibble" and that he will sell you a majik charm, powered by black body radiation which will shield you.

I want to place on record here that I have never used the word "wibble" in my life, and I do not spell magic with a k.

As usual a gross misrepresentation, designed only to pejorise.

The impact of weak electric fields on organisms is not confined to cancer anyway, as I have pointed out, and therefore there are probably a number of mechanisms e.g. depolaristion of the inner mitochondrial membrane, interference with the body's own signal transduction, etc. All of these have been advanced by reputable labs and we do not disagree with them.

 

[Pragmatist]

From Prag:

Joking aside, perhaps, since you clearly have no difficulty, you would care to simply tell us what the experimental setup was that produced the alleged "polarized magnetic fields"?

If you are really serious, and not simply trying to prove that I am ignorant, I will happily send you a photocopy of the full text of Kato and Shigemitsu, pp337 to 376 in the Melatonin Hypothesis (1997), so you can evaluate their work for yourself. Spending the time typing it out is not an option.

I'll restrain myself for one from capitalising on the obvious humorous opening!

I don't want a full copy, the study itself doesn't interest me particularly. The only bit which is interesting is how they claim that magnetic fields can be polarised. Of course I don't expect you to type it all in. But surely you can explain the basics of the technique? You were making comments about how polarised fields "work" which means you must have some idea what a "polarised magnetic field" IS, surely?

I mean if you can't even do that, then you surely must have been bluffing?

Whilst I would never pass up a chance to prove how ignorant you are I would genuinely like to know how one can claim to polarise a non divergent field.

 

[cogreslab]

As indicated I shall be away for a few days. Best to all.

PS: I prefer my "silly poem" to this twaddle.

Here it is:

Induction of Fear and Panic in Human Populations by Means of a Kettle Lead

Dr* RW Coghill MA (Cantab.) C Biol. MI Biol. MA (Environ Mgt)
Coghill Research Laboratories
Pontypool

Abstract

This study shows conclusively that a common kettle lead can be used to induce panic states in human (non mammalian) subjects. A test individual was exposed to a kettle lead in a controlled environment at 20 C which had no ELF fields due to water baths and which was heated solely by an electric heater. When shown the kettle lead and presented with the information that kettle leads kill babies, the subject displayed signs of increased adrenaline flow, including changes in breathing pattern, widening of eyes etc. It is hypothesized that this response is entirely due to electric fields of 20V/m induced in the subject by the kettle lead. Although the kettle lead was not actually plugged in, the authors have proven conclusively that an electric field was present in the lead due to quantum vortex transduction through Far Infra Red radiation mediated by implosion devices in the near field, and modulated by nearby moth spectrophotometers. Although only one subject was used, and only one test performed, he was counted 10,000 times and therefore represents a sample size of 10,000 leading to statistical confidence in the results. Analysis of the data strongly indicated a 100% response and as such the results may be comfortably extrapolated to the entire human population. Who are not animals, or mammals, but bacteria are. We need to state this because we do not do animal experiments. The results prove conclusively that the dangers of electric fields in kettle leads have been deliberately concealed by the NRPB and other agencies as part of a larger conspiracy.

* Disclaimer: any attribution of titles such as "Dr" are not the responsibility of the author, but are due to tampering and retyping of the manuscript by third parties who are probably involved in the conspiracy.

 

[Pragmatist]

To Cleopatra:

Prag's comment "When he tells everyone that they are so dangerous, he is ignorant of the fact that most of those fields will never even REACH the inside of the body". is sadly wrong.

For starters the way mobile phones are assessed for impact on users is a statistic called "Specific Absorption Rate ("SAR"), which estimates the level of electric field inside the body as a result of the phone, and using a formula which incorporates conductivity of tissues et alia produces an SAR value for cellphone types. (There is a lot wrong with this approach, but that's another issue). My Motorola phone has an official SAR of 0.9 W/kg for example. The limit is the US (ANSI) is 1.6 W/kg from memory, and in Europe I thinkm it's 2.0 W/kg but this depends on a number of factors e.g frequency. So to say these fields never get inside the body goes against the way all the cellphones in the world are presently evaluated for health impact. These are RF/MW radiations, of course, but ELF fields, being a much lower frequency, are much more penetrative of water (of which we are largely made) which is why the US and other navies chose 76Hz (an ELF frequency), for their communications with submarines.

Bollocks! You were talking about ELF FIELDS now you suddenly switch to UHF WAVES, and ELF WAVES! Total diversion and misdirection as usual. Submarines do NOT use ELF electric fields to communicate they use ELF electromagnetic waves.

ELF means "extra low frequency", cell phones work at UHF which means "ultra high frequency".

SAR is a measure of POWER absorbtion by tissue, it is NOT a measure of electric fields!

Why do you think you'll get away with conning the laypeople? You know perfectly well that we are watching and are going to expose you!

Cleopatra: this is total bunk. It doesn't even come close to addressing the issue raised.

 

[cogreslab]

For Cleopatra:

Satellite images 'show Atlantis'

By Paul Rincon
BBC News Online science staff (today)



The imagery may show the former locations of major buildings and rings


More details

A scientist says he may have found remains of the lost city of Atlantis.
Satellite photos of southern Spain reveal features on the ground appearing to match descriptions made by Greek scholar Plato of the fabled utopia.

Dr Rainer Kuehne thinks the "island" of Atlantis simply referred to a region of the southern Spanish coast destroyed by a flood between 800 BC and 500 BC.

The research has been reported as an ongoing project in the online edition of the journal Antiquity.

We have in the photos concentric rings just as Plato described

Dr Rainer Kuehne, University of Wuppertal
Satellite photos of a salt marsh region known as Marisma de Hinojos near the city of Cadiz show two rectangular structures in the mud and parts of concentric rings that may once have surrounded them.

"Plato wrote of an island of five stades (925m) diameter that was surrounded by several circular structures - concentric rings - some consisting of Earth and the others of water. We have in the photos concentric rings just as Plato described," Dr Kuehne told BBC News Online.

Dr Kuehne, of the University of Wuppertal in Germany, believes the rectangular features could be the remains of a "silver" temple devoted to the sea god Poseidon and a "golden" temple devoted to Cleito and Poseidon - all described in Plato's dialogue Critias.

Temples of the sea god

The sizes of the "island" and its rings in the satellite image are slightly larger than those described by Plato. There are two possible explanations for this, says Dr Kuehne.

First, Plato may have underplayed the size of Atlantis. Secondly, the ancient unit of measurement used by Plato - the stade - may have been 20% larger than traditionally assumed.


It is claimed that concentric rings surround the temple site


Enlarge Image

If the latter is true, one of the rectangular features on the "island" matches almost exactly the dimensions given by Plato for the temple of Poseidon.

The features were originally spotted by Werner Wickboldt, a lecturer and Atlantis enthusiast who studied photographs from across the Mediterranean for signs of the city described by Plato.

"This is the only place that seems to fit [Plato's] description," he told BBC News Online.

Mr Wickboldt added that the Greeks might have confused an Egyptian word referring to a coastline with one meaning "island" during transmission of the Atlantis story.

Commenting on the satellite image showing the two "temples", Tony Wilkinson, an expert in the use of remote sensing in archaeology at the University of Edinburgh, UK, told BBC News Online: "A lot of the problems come with interpretations. I can see something there and I could imagine that one could interpret it in various ways. But you've got several leaps of faith here.

Metal trading

"We use the imagery to recognise certain types of imprint on the ground and then do [in the field] verification on them. Based on what we see on the ground we make an interpretation.

"What we need here is a date range. Otherwise, you're just dealing with morphology. But the [features] are interesting."

The fabled utopia of Atlantis has captured the imagination of scholars for centuries. The earliest known records of this mythical land appear in Plato's dialogues Critias and Timaios.


This reconstruction of the city of Atlantis is based on Plato's description
His depiction of a land of fabulous wealth, advanced civilisation and natural beauty has spurred many adventurers to seek out its location.

One recent theory equates Atlantis with Spartel Island, a mud shoal in the straits of Gibraltar that sank into the sea 11,000 years ago.

Plato described Atlantis as having a "plain". Dr Kuehne said this might be the plain that extends today from Spain's southern coast up to the city of Seville. The high mountains described by the Greek scholar could be the Sierra Morena and Sierra Nevada.

"Plato also wrote that Atlantis is rich in copper and other metals. Copper is found in abundance in the mines of the Sierra Morena," Dr Kuehne explained.


The rectangles: What interpretation can be put on the satellite images?
Dr Kuehne noticed that the war between Atlantis and the eastern Mediterranean described in Plato's writings closely resembled attacks on Egypt, Cyprus and the Levant during the 12th Century BC by mysterious raiders known as the Sea People.

As a result, he proposes that the Atlanteans and the Sea People were in fact one and the same.

This dating would equate the city and society of Atlantis with either the Iron Age Tartessos culture of southern Spain or another, unknown, Bronze Age culture. A link between Atlantis and Tartessos was first proposed in the early 20th Century.

Dr Kuehne said he hoped to attract interest from archaeologists to excavate the site. But this may be tricky. The features in the satellite photo are located within Spain's Donana national park.