Bioelectromagnetics

cogreslab said:
Come on Prag!

"The key decision was to classify power-frequency magnetic fields as “possibly carcinogenic”.

Why are not you therefore calling Elizabeth Cardis a scaremonger?

When she presented this in public, I asked her why there was no IARC pronouncement about ELF electric fields. An embarrassed silence. Then "Well, we haven't looked into this yet".

It must be the most officially unresearched area in the whole of bioelectromagnetics. And by this I include Martha Linet's pathetic reasons for excluding ELF electric fields from the NCI study. Do you want me to take you through her "argument"?

I'm not calling them scaremongers because THEY are not. They don't start stories about dead babies etc. And classifying something as "possibly carcinogenic" is hardly scary. Especially when they point out that the POSSIBLE risk is comparable to drinking a cup of coffee or eating a picked onion! :)

The reason why there was an embarassed silence to your question was probably because those people were too polite. They were embarassed by such a silly question and they didn't want to publicly offend you by pointing out how silly it was. Hence the embarassed silence!

No, I don't want you to take me through anybody's argument. If I want to see anybody's argument I can look it up myself. I can't rely on YOUR representation of it. Especially when you clearly don't know what you're talking about!
 
cogreslab said:
NOT ONE PERSON on here has accepted the "methodology" of your ridiculous experiment.

Re non adjacent squares:

Quote from another poser, sorry poster: "(I see you did that)".

Just one example.

And why don't you openly ask the person who said that whether they agree that is an acceptance of your methodology in total?

Go on, I dare you...!
 
vlix said:


I have been reading this thread from its beginning, with great interest. I would just like to have it known that I agree with Pragmatist et al., and that I think that you, Mr. Coghill, are either a fraud, a fool, or both. I bet I'm not the only one either :D
"My battle"? Oh pur-lease Mr. Coghill! Lose the melodramatics and invite your friends, it'll be fun!

Agreed.

Although it is easy to see how Mr. Goghill's reply to Cleopatra could easily convince a credulous layman, had his errors not been pointed out by others.

The general public seem to be accepting homeopathy as genuine in ever greater numbers. (I'm just going on the ubiquity of homeopathic remedies in chemist shops like Boots etc.).

His argument smacks of homeopathy:

Like treating like.

Therefore, IF there is a danger from EMF and (in the public's eye) this is seen as having to do with electricity/magnets, then the homeopathic treatments would have something to do with electricity/magnets.

Isn't Roger just playing on our (most of our) abominable understanding of science? Although even my Higher Physics and Chemistry meters twitch at some of his assertions.

The only thing that is missing with the homeopathic analogy is the immense dilution. Roger could fix this by advising that for 'extra efficacy' the puchaser might want to throw their Magnet/Harmoniser/Talisman into a river to get the correct magneto-mnemonic-dilusion effect (qv). The healing would then be 'remembered' by the water in the river. One should, of course, bathe regularly in your healing river (especially in cold, winter months) so that you will be 'harmonised' by its cleansing current of magneto-mnemonic energy.

Wait a second! Where have I heard stuff like this before? Oh, I know -- in the placatory SUPERSTITIONS of religions going back to the dawn of Man.

Must be right then!:D :D

We must always remember to placate Poseidon in order to receive the blessings of wealth and health.
 
MRC_Hans said:
Am I the only one who is reminded of the former Iraqui minister of information? :roll:

or:

"I'ts just a scratch, come back and fight, I can still bite you!".

Roger, you have been devastated, half of it by the main trust of your fire being directed at your own foot.

Hans

You must be telepathic Hans, I was thinking EXACTLY the same thing! :)

Even "comical Ali" looks credible compared to Roger! :)
 
Roger said: You have heard of electrocution, but have you ever heard of magnetocution?!

Hans said: Electrocution refers to effects of physical contact with conductors, and is of course entirely irrelevant. Magneticution (a Roger Coghill word) does exist, however: Experiments have shown the deadly effect of very strong alternating magnetic fields.


I agree (with Hans). I've personally had several severe shocks arising from high power pulsed magnetic fields. To make this clearer for laypeople: magnetic fields induce CURRENTS in material conductors (like body tissue). A powerful magnetic field can induce a powerful current. And currents cause shock and damage. Like I said earlier, a pure field can't give anyone a shock, but the CURRENT induced by a field can.

So yes, "magnetocution" is quite possible.

And it highlights the issue of electric v magnetic fields. Electric fields don't necessarily induce high currents. A conductor can "pull down" the potential of an electric field due to its source impedance, and electric fields don't generally penetrate INSIDE conductors (like the body). Whereas, a magnetic field will cause ions to move in tissue, creating an immediate and sometimes strong current and tissue conductivity will not shield you from a magnetic field.

If we are talking pure fields, then a magnetic field is actually more likely to (indirectly) electrocute you than an electric field!
 
Dodger,

What journal is going to publish your "paper?" When?

What is so hard about answering these questions, sir? You claimed your "paper" was about to be published, and we have repeatedly called for the name of the journal and the anticipated publication date.

Well?
 
The Mighty Thor said:
Although it is easy to see how Mr. Goghill's reply to Cleopatra could easily convince a credulous layman, had his errors not been pointed out by others.

Isn't Roger just playing on our (most of our) abominable understanding of science? Although even my Higher Physics and Chemistry meters twitch at some of his assertions.

This is what makes me so angry with Roger. He relies entirely on deception.

Most people are not specialists in scientific fields, so when he spouts some technobabble, many perfectly normal and intelligent people think, "Ooh, he must be a scientist who knows what he's talking about!" Which couldn't be further from the truth....!

When he is challenged directly on basics, he tries to obscure and bluff his way out. He spouts MORE technobabble. Or he demands "peer reviewed references", knowing full well that basic material that has been accepted for 150 years or more doesn't have or need "peer reviewed references". He relies on an implicit deception there too. Because people who DON'T know the truth then say, "Well, maybe he's right, after all why CAN'T the people who disagree present a peer reviewed reference?"

But it's all smoke and mirrors. For example if he was claiming that apples fall UPWARD when they fall off trees, somebody would say, "Rubbish, things don't fall UPWARDS, they fall down". He would then demand a "peer reviewed reference" to prove it, knowing full well that Isaac Newton's work some 350 years ago showing that apples fall DOWN off trees, doesn't have or need any "peer reviewed references". But unless someone knows independently that apples DON'T fall upwards, there is always the chance that somebody ignorant of the fact will believe him.

When the technobabble fails he quotes some totally irrelevant reference of his own. He knows that laypeople won't understand a word of that reference, and again some will think that because he's produced a scientific sounding document, that what he says must be true.

And when he is finally cornered he simply changes the subject, avoids the issue for a few dozen posts and then just flatly lies and claims that his argument was completely proved and accepted by all previously!

And unfortunately it means that those of us who do understand some of the technicalities have to keep repeating the truth (for the benefit of laypeople) to prevent him getting away with this deceptive behavior.

Many of the "scientific" references he quotes are pseudoscientific BS in themselves. For example he cited Callaghan and Dr Cyril Smith some posts back in support of his theories. These people seem to be superficially credible, but when you look up what they REALLY expound, it's a shock, because its complete crap!

Callaghan believes in "mystical earth energies" and talks about releasing mystical magnetic energies by burning stones(!) and Dr Cyril Smith is a lunatic into dowsing, homeopathy, radiesthesia and pendulum power!

Roger is all front and deception. There is no substance behind any of it. But he has worked out a nice stage show that obviously serves him well in fooling the public. That is why I sincerely hope he is publicly exposed for the fraud he really is.
 
BillHoyt said:

Fortunately, the paper is more informative than the average tabloid and further reports the margin of error is +/- 4%. That means that Dewey's figures actually lie somewhere between 44 and 52% and Cheatam's between 48 and 54%.


Billie hollidog, you don't know if, say, Dewey's true proportion "actually" lies in that interval, as you claim. We can only say it lies within that interval with a certain probability.
 
Is there a significant age of death difference between people who always work near electrical lines and those who don't?
 
BillHoyt said:

I cannot imagine a more delusional post.


Ad hom.


You are bordering on certifiable here, dodger.


Ad hom.


You're a crank, sir, pure and simple.


Ad hom.


A bullsh!t artist


Ad hom.


You nitwit.


Ad hom.


You're full of sh!t.


Ad hom.


Nearly fifty pages here, you bullsh!t artist,


Ad hom.


and you are still full of sh!t.


Ad hom.


your dimwitted acumen


Ad hom.


and absolutely impoverished understanding of basic science, laboratory procedures and statistical analysis.


Now's your chance, Bill: is skewness/skew only called skew as you claim? ... ... ... ... ...


Your willie's too small to


Ad hom.


Your brain's too small as well.


Ad hom.


The world now knows it, you arrogant puke.

Ad hom.

:rolleyes:
 
Cleopatra said:

Did you join this thread to derail it?
[

This is a free country, Cleopatra..


Guess what. He won't reply to you because he is busy debunking Coghill's claims. :)

He won't reply to me, period. He ignores backing up his own claims, while demanding others prove theirs. Go ahead, ask him if skewness/skew is only called skew...
 
Pragmatist said:


This is what makes me so angry with Roger. He relies entirely on deception.

Most people are not specialists in scientific fields, so when he spouts some technobabble, many perfectly normal and intelligent people think, "Ooh, he must be a scientist who knows what he's talking about!" Which couldn't be further from the truth....!
It is typically crank behavior. It is what we fight daily, unfortunately. Most aren't as persistent as Dodger, though.
 
BillHoyt said:

It is typically crank behavior. It is what we fight daily, unfortunately. Most aren't as persistent as Dodger, though.

Your lengthy list of ad homs above is what you mean by fighting??
 
The more I read Pragmatist's responses in this thread, the more they remind me of the tactics used by the National Grid over the years to protect their vested interest and avoid having to face the EMF issue:

1. Try desperately and repeatedly to discredit the opponent in terms of his credentials, scientific knowledge and ability to investigate by experiment.

2. Avoid frontal discussion of the argument by seizing on minor and relatively unimportant points, and philibuster these endlessly to delay or avoid the main argument.

3. Use every means to persuade the lay reader that the opponent's science is not what most accept, and that his position is isolationist.

4. Ignore them when important truths are voiced. Use any slanted documents or quotes from authorities aligned with the utilities, and omit any contrary but equally authoritative views.

5. Try to argue that the evidence of health hazard from EMF is insubstantial, flawed, and only advanced by scaremongers with an agenda to peddle their wares.


Now I hear that for some undisclosed reason our Prag has been shocked by high strength pulsed magnetic fields, it makes me wonder if this similarity is more than coinicidental.
 
T'ai Chi said:
Is there a significant age of death difference between people who always work near electrical lines and those who don't?
No.

Hans
 
cogreslab said:
*snip*
1. Try desperately and repeatedly to discredit the opponent in terms of his credentials, scientific knowledge and ability to investigate by experiment.

2. Avoid frontal discussion of the argument by seizing on minor and relatively unimportant points, and philibuster these endlessly to delay or avoid the main argument.

3. Use every means to persuade the lay reader that the opponent's science is not what most accept, and that his position is isolationist.

4. Ignore them when important truths are voiced. Use any slanted documents or quotes from authorities aligned with the utilities, and omit any contrary but equally authoritative views.

5. Try to argue that the evidence of health hazard from EMF is insubstantial, flawed, and only advanced by scaremongers with an agenda to peddle their wares.

*snip*
You forgot:

6. Whenever his technical arguments are demolished, gloss over and act as if it did not happen.

7. At whatever and no opportunity play for the galleries, spouting technobabble in hopes of deceiving lay persons in the audience.

------ OH? This was not about yourself?? Funny, it fit just like a glove :rolleyes:-

Hans
 
MRC_Hans said:

I don't want to take you on faith like you're some god. You see, I am a skepdork. So, it comes down to: Do you have any studies, published in mainstream scientific peer reviewed journals by reputable scientists, with large sample sizes, double-blind procedures, randomization, replication, and no typos in their reports, that show that there is no statistically significant difference?

:D
 
T'ai Chi said:


I don't want to take you on faith like you're some god. You see, I am a skepdork. So, it comes down to: Do you have any studies, published in mainstream scientific peer reviewed journals by reputable scientists, with large sample sizes, double-blind procedures, randomization, replication, and no typos in their reports, that show that there is no statistically significant difference?

:D
The citations relating to the health effects of living near power lines have already been posted in this thread. If you're not prepared to look into these then you can hardly xpect someone else to do tis on your behalf.

Another point to consider is that health effects relating to living near power lines may not have anything to do with the effects of living in electromagentic fields and instead have a different cause (again a link has been provided in this thread).
 
The Don said:

The citations relating to the health effects of living near power lines have already been posted in this thread. If you're not prepared to look into these then you can hardly xpect someone else to do tis on your behalf.


In other words, you don't want to look through 50 pages of bickering either? :D
 
Two nice examples from Prag of what I was just saying:

He said: "Keep digging, you just don't know when to stop and once again your phenomenal ignorance shines through!

You can't polarise a pure magnetic field idiot!

Maxwell's second equation: Div(B)=0

Of course that's way over your head, just like everything else on here.

Read your own statement above:

"issue of electric fields as the correct metric"
"polarised magnetric fieds"
"importance of the electric component"
"polarised magnetic fields are much higher"

Kato huh? Wasn't he Inspector Clouseau's manservant? Sounds about right. You make Clouseau look like a competent genius! "

Notice the use of attempted character assassination, then a claim that is probably too complicated for lay readers to follow. Two of the tactics I described in a recent post.

Now let me try to explain this exchange for lay readers.

Bary Wilson from Battelle in 1981 reported that 60 Hz electric fields of 2-20kV/m (the lower values are such as one finds under a high voltage powerline) greatly reduced the synthesis of melatonin in adult rats. Rus Reiter from Texas Univ at San Antonio found a similar effect on young rats in 1988. Wilson later reported (1990) a similar effect in humans using certain types of electric blanket. Others discovered that magnetic fields could also do this (e.g. Yellon, 1994, MacCormick et al., 1994), but a third study (Lerchl, 1990) had previously found that specific aspects of magnetic field exposure might critically affect the melatonin response.

Magnetic fields can be circularly, elliptically or linearly polarised, depending on the way the load is configured. What Kato investigated was why some magnetic fields affected melatonin synthesis while others did not. He found that if the fields were circularly polarised there was an effect, but not with linear or 4-1 elliptically polarised magnetic fields. These latter induce a much less important electric component.

So the reason turned out to be that circularly polarised magnetic fields of 7-350 uT induced higher electric fields (or rather currents which gave rise to electric fields) than the other types at the same field strengths. Another Battelle study on primates (Rogers et al., 1995) also found that exposure to only the horizontal component of the magnetic field had no effect on melatonin synthesis, but when a transient electric component was introduced the inhibiting effect was profound.

These studies taken together point to the strong possibility that it is the electric component of the 60 Hz fields which is suppressing melatonin, and further studies are continuing to look into that.

Why is melatonin so important? Not only is it a powerful cancer-stopping agent, but recently some Spanish research (Carrillo-Vico et al., 2004) has discovered that when the white blood cells responsible for immune competence are challenged they emit large quantities of melatonin as a means of dealing with the challenge.

In our lab we are setting up experiments to evaluate the melatonin emitting response by peripheral blood lymphocytes when challenged with and without concomintastnt exposure to electric fields. If this turns out positive (i.e. if the ELF electric field inhibits the ability of PBLs to synthesise melatonin just as it does in the pineal gland, it goes a long way to explain at a cellular level how ELF electric fields can cause cancer. Of course there may be no effect, and since ithis is an importent exercise, we will report it either way in a conference in Septermber. The melatonin determinations need a GC/MS/MS machine to detect the indole, so most labs will not be able to do the experiment, but we are just taking delivery of a quadrupole ion trap machine wihich is upto the task. (Of course we are probably only doing this to make money, according to Prag.).
 

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