If you search google for Stewart Fist (Electric words) and go to his links page you will find his (earlier) version of Moulder's site, and a separate link with Fist's comments. I hope you can find there the original version of Moulder's site which has now been updated by Dr Moulder to remove his original statement about me.
Bioelectromagnetics
- Thread starter Beleth
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ELF Communications System Ecological Monitoring Program: Michigan Bird Studies
Authors: Hanowski, JoAnn M.; Niemi, Gerald J.; Blake, John G.; IIT RESEARCH INST CHICAGO IL
Abstract: The U.S. Navy has completed a program monitoring flora, fauna, and ecological relationships for possible effects from electromagnetic fields produced by its Extremely Low Frequency (ELF) Communications System. This report documents studies of the resident and migratory birds in Michigan. Researchers from the University of Minnesota,Duluth (UMD) used a line-transect method to simultaneously census the avian community present in areas near (treatment) and far (reference) from the Michigan transmitter. Monthly censuses (May to September) were performed annually from 1986 through 1993. Data collected over the entire period of study were analyzed using repeated analysis of variance. Study parameters included total species richness, species abundance, abundance of common bird species, and abundance of birds within selected guilds. Analyses showed a few statistically significant changes in the intersite relationship of parameters over time; however, the pattern of changes was not related to EM exposures. The number of significant changes was small, and not greater than that expected to occur by chance alone. Study results in Michigan are similar to those obtained by UMD for surveys performed near the Wisconsin transmitter UMD researchers conclude no effects on avian ecology from operation of the ELF communications System.
Limitations: APPROVED FOR PUBLIC RELEASE
Description: Final rept. 1984-1994
I am surprised to read Dr Moulder's statement that no research was done for 20 years, since this report is only a decade old.
Authors: Hanowski, JoAnn M.; Niemi, Gerald J.; Blake, John G.; IIT RESEARCH INST CHICAGO IL
Abstract: The U.S. Navy has completed a program monitoring flora, fauna, and ecological relationships for possible effects from electromagnetic fields produced by its Extremely Low Frequency (ELF) Communications System. This report documents studies of the resident and migratory birds in Michigan. Researchers from the University of Minnesota,Duluth (UMD) used a line-transect method to simultaneously census the avian community present in areas near (treatment) and far (reference) from the Michigan transmitter. Monthly censuses (May to September) were performed annually from 1986 through 1993. Data collected over the entire period of study were analyzed using repeated analysis of variance. Study parameters included total species richness, species abundance, abundance of common bird species, and abundance of birds within selected guilds. Analyses showed a few statistically significant changes in the intersite relationship of parameters over time; however, the pattern of changes was not related to EM exposures. The number of significant changes was small, and not greater than that expected to occur by chance alone. Study results in Michigan are similar to those obtained by UMD for surveys performed near the Wisconsin transmitter UMD researchers conclude no effects on avian ecology from operation of the ELF communications System.
Limitations: APPROVED FOR PUBLIC RELEASE
Description: Final rept. 1984-1994
I am surprised to read Dr Moulder's statement that no research was done for 20 years, since this report is only a decade old.
cogreslab said:
You are avoiding the refutation of your claims. If you would like to take Professor Moulder claim and say it is wrong that is fine.
However I would appreciate a yes or no answer to the first of the following questions:
Your claim
"I have read this carefully many times, and he has had to withdraw at least one response as a result of my protests"
Moulder's response:
The above is news to me.
Question: Do you dispute Moulder's answer?
Follow on question: If the answer is yes, can you provide any corroborating evidence?
(Edited for several spelling misteaks.)
Have another look at what Dr Moulder actually said. And as for this broken link, I can assure you that I discovered Moulder's erroneous reference to me on Fist's mirror site, which has apparently now been unhooked., had an ensuing dialogue with Moulder pointing out that my work had actually been peer reviewed, contrary to what was on Fist's site, and Moulder removed the offending error like a gentleman. If he now chooses to deny this I am disappointed. I also complained to Fist directly, but never had the courtesy of a reply. That is my story. It is true, but only Fist or Moulder can confirm this, because I don't keep my emails that long. I also asked Don Maisch to try to contact Fist and remove the error in Moulder's mirror site, and perhaps Don will remember that occasion too. Frankly I think you are using this as a red herring to detract from the main issues.
cogreslab said:
I know exactly what he said.
It is you who has made a claim yet you cannot support that claim. Now you or Moulder may be deliberately telling lies, miss-remembering or just be plain mistaken, that is not really the point.
What is germane to the point is that you cannot support a claim you made.
Univ of Wisconsin and US Navy Research. I see nothing wrong about the fact that the US Navy has funded Univ Wisconsin, actually. Ben Greenebaum, the long standing editor of the BEMS Journal is also at Wisconsin, and has been working on EMF effects on slime moulds for many years as part of the US Navy's research to see if their ELF transmitter (which stretches across Wisconsin and Michigan State), have any local adverse effects on biota. As I said in my original post, some say Dr Moulder is funded by the US Navy, but I have no proof of this. If Dr Moulder say it isn't so then I beleive him. It was never something I claimed myself.
cogreslab said:
Can you please address your original claim and the response that Moulder made.
To Darat: I have answered the three points fairly well: Moulder's site is extremely biased in my view. He did alter his site as a result of pressure from me, even if he chooses to forget it now. Research into EMF at The University of Wisconsin is funded by the US Navy, and some of that funding may indrectly go to Moulder. The only issue where Moulder is right (if you choose to exclude adult cancers) is that there are no other electric field studies of any quality reporting similar results to ours. I have been at some pains all along to point out how the NRPB and the utilities are deliberately suppressing research into the electric component, so that is hardly surprising is it?
Stop distracting from this round, rogbot. This is yet another red herring. We're dealing with Moulder now. And with your broken link. And your irrelevant citations.cogreslab said:
For the record, though, I am in contact with two professors at MRC. When I develop good information and secure their consent to publish correspondence here, I will provide it.
But, you see, that is an essential difference in skepticism. We do our homework first.
Now, then, let us look at your recent track record here. A long series of allegations, followed by a response from Moulder. A response to which you:
o Cited a study about adult cancers (not childhood lukemia) and ELF
o Mangled the citation for the aforementioned study
o Began red herrings, subject / motive shifts and other distracting fallacies
o Cited a link that turned out to be broken
o When called on the broken link, expect us to take you on your assurances it is what you say it is.
o Cited yet another study proving research existed in an attempt to refute Moulder's statement about research funding
When will you stop this parade of evasions and start addressing the questions?
cogreslab to date you have not provided any proof of any of your claims in this post:
I have provided evidence that each and everyone of your claims is incorrect.
I have provided evidence that each and everyone of your claims is incorrect.
Does this read as if the issue is being swept under the carpet by the NRPB?
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,3604,1182242,00.html
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,3604,1182242,00.html
In FY97, $13 million was appropriated for Project ELF. In the 1996 court case Wisconsin v. Donna and Tom Howard-Hastings, three expert witnesses -- including former nuclear submarine commander Captain James T. Bush -- were able to establish that Project ELF's sole role is to launch and wage a nuclear war.
Excuse me, but do you guys know just what you are getting yourselves into? Project ELF is a weapon of total destruction, a very large, purpose built trigger for launching Trident missiles from submarines, and Moulder may be a part of it. I have steadily defended all my claims about Moulder, despite what Bill Hoyt (aka airhead) blurts out in his inimitably emotional and puerile fashion.
Moulder altered his website which had previously alleged my work was not peer reviewed. His opinions are wholly biased on behalf of the US Navy's interests. Moulder works at Wisconsin, where EMF research is funded by the Office of Naval Research. The ELF transmitter in Wisconsin state may be 400 miles from Moulder's Office, but its effects are global. I would personally not wish not be on Moulder's side in this issue: that thing makes SIDS and childhood leukaemkia (or even adult leukaeimias) like a vicar's teaparty in terms of its destructive power.
Excuse me, but do you guys know just what you are getting yourselves into? Project ELF is a weapon of total destruction, a very large, purpose built trigger for launching Trident missiles from submarines, and Moulder may be a part of it. I have steadily defended all my claims about Moulder, despite what Bill Hoyt (aka airhead) blurts out in his inimitably emotional and puerile fashion.
Moulder altered his website which had previously alleged my work was not peer reviewed. His opinions are wholly biased on behalf of the US Navy's interests. Moulder works at Wisconsin, where EMF research is funded by the Office of Naval Research. The ELF transmitter in Wisconsin state may be 400 miles from Moulder's Office, but its effects are global. I would personally not wish not be on Moulder's side in this issue: that thing makes SIDS and childhood leukaemkia (or even adult leukaeimias) like a vicar's teaparty in terms of its destructive power.
cogreslab said:
No you have not.
You have not proved he changed his FAQ after protest from yourself.
You have not proved or provided any evidence that he is funded by the US Navy
and so on.
To date you made a series of claims that you have not been able to substantiate.
cogreslab said:
May I suggest you provide evidence for your claims or cease making them?