Bioelectromagnetics

[Ed]

Wait a minute. I am having a problem with the units here. Is 150V/cm equivilent to having a conductor (with some sort of load presumably) one cm. from the subject? Is that right?

So does that mean that you would need a power line carrying 77,760,000 volts at a distance of 60 feet to be equivilant to 150V/cm?

I might have screwed up the arithmatic but I figure the equivilent voltage falls off as the inverse of the square of the distance.

Is this right?

 

[Cleopatra]

Cleopatra,

Do you see the "self-evident" to my questions? Is he a fraud or does his challenge ask for infanticide? What is the "self-evident" third choice he has been unable to produce for several days now? Is it not high time to cease treating him as a mensche and start decrying his utter chutzpah?

I am sorry I just saw that Bill. I think that things are crystal clear to the kind reader .

BTW where do you find this energy, do you use a static magnet or a crystal?

OMG!!! I was ready to ask you if you use a mood maker and I have just read what this is all about!!! I thought that it was something to make you feel better.

"Viagra eat your heart out"?
I thought that the phrase in English was tad different and it involved brains...

 

[davefoc]

Ed said:

So does that mean that you would need a power line carrying 77,760,000 volts at a distance of 60 feet to be equivilant to 150V/cm?

Ed,
The electric field falls off as the square of the distance for a point charge.

The electric field falls off linearly with the distance for a line charge.

The confounding problem here, as MRC_Hans pointed out earlier, is that power is transported with multiple wires (two or three) and the field from one wire can serve to reduce the field of a wire with the opposite charge.

I might have a shot at doing the math here to make an estimate, but rather than embarass myself with a wrong approach I'll just say that if you're much closer to one wire than the other the electric field near you will fall off linearly with the distance from that wire. If you are much farther away from both wires than the wires are to each other the electric field near you will be the sum (vector sum since electric fields are vectors) of the electric fields and the field strength will drop linearly with your distance from the two wires.

Regardless of the math I saw an estimate of about a 1000 volts/meter near some high tension lines.

Frankly, I thought god would have known all this, but maybe with all the stuff going on in the world today, you just lost your focus a bit.

 

[BillHoyt]

I am sorry I just saw that Bill. I think that things are crystal clear to the kind reader .

BTW where do you find this energy, do you use a static magnet or a crystal?

OMG!!! I was ready to ask you if you use a mood maker and I have just read what this is all about!!! I thought that it was something to make you feel better.

"Viagra eat your heart out"?
I thought that the phrase in English was tad different and it involved brains...

Use it on whom, Cleopatra?

Yes, I know that English phrase, and some of the strippers I know are very good at doing that to me. I ususally get my brains back in shortly afterwards, though.

 

[CFLarsen]

Yes I concede that worms are animals really, and so are bacteria with which we also experiment.

Bacteria are not animals, Roger. 5th graders know this. You don't. Why should anyone trust you when you speak of scientific findings?

I apologise for the misleading statement, What I was trying to say was that we do not do experiments with anything alive that can look at you.

The animals have rights, depending on how Bambi-eyed they can get, enabling them to install guilt-feelings in humans? What kind of f*cked up ethics is that, Roger?

Would you experiment on the cave rat (Neotoma), some mole species that are totally blind, or the cave wolf spider, found in Kauai?

Here's a hint, Roger: Write your post in a separate text editor, e.g. Notepad. Then post it all at the same time. That way, you get around the time-out feature.

 

[Cleopatra]

Mr.Coghill ask your IT manager to fix the settings of the cookies of your browser so as the pages in this forum do not expire.It's difficult to address your posts if you cut them in small pieces.

 

[Cleopatra]

What I was trying to say was that we do not do experiments with anything alive that can look at you.

Sir, I hope that you can understand that such statements can cause nothing but ironic remarks to your claims considering the specifics of your challenge.

To Cleopatra: I almost did that experiment with my fifth little boy by accident.

I don't have any reasons to doubt you I just hope that you can distinguish the difference between an argument which is based on an anecdote and an argument which is built on a scientific experiment.

Come on, you guys, get onto the right side in this argument, and stop beleiving this establishment rubbish propaganda.

The problem is, Mr. Coghill, that the various new-agers who sell their products with a wrap of homeopathy and a sauce of Atlantis have formed an establishment as well , they have formed an industry that pays well and they have equal financial interests to protect.

It's an establishment of the worse kind. It's an establishment who invests on the fear of the common people and tries to find malice in the words of those who pose questions.

 

[Cleopatra]

Originally posted by cogreslab To Cleopatra: Our computers are attacked many times each hour, so we have to keep well firewalled I am afraid. Any way, my posts are already far longer than most of the replies, and it makes sense to split up these complicated arguments. I would be happy, as indicated to buy you lunch (is that in Manchester? I used to live in Wilmslow) and take you though all this science (and the Atlantis thing too).

I work under firewall as well. Ask Alistair at your lab to fix it.
I just contacted your lab to purchase the CD about Atlantis and see what this is all about. I will have to study it and return to this subject.

If you talk to me about science I will talk you about my legal adventures with those who try to get advantage of the human pain and about the establishment that wants to sell fraud as an "alternative way of thinking". They make me angry you know.

Plato was aware of that astonishing beauty. I reckon he got it from the Pythagoreans when he was in Sicily.

Oh my!!Please.

 

[Cleopatra]

I concede there are a lot of people out there who have no real scientific understanding of homeopathy nor any academic understanding of the Atlantis story. I guess some of them try making a living out of that, too. But when you read the opinions of one who has recognised, good degrees in the relevant sciences, a long period of their study, a laboratory well equipped and routinely investigating the issues, a list of peer reviewed publications, referee status in the most respected journals in the fierld, (and a few dozen white coats too) do you not think he deserves an audience and not dismissal as a loonie? OK so the ideas are heterodox. But they are also based on solid biology chemistry and physics. And on reading the original Platonic dialogues in their original, not some moonstruck mumbojumbo.

I hope that those who follow the thread, you included Mr. Coghill, can appreciate that I am addressing your posts seriously although you have attempted to dodge the issue of the PhoneShield crystal that decorates my cell right now and the issue of the challenge that the fellow posters brought.

Since you use semantics to your posts let me ask you a question. How do you want me not to take you as a "loonie" when I read the specifics of your challenge and when you claim that you don't wish to have eyes of animals starring at you when you perform experiments?

It's everything in the semantics Mr. Coghill. Semantics. Nothing goes alone, magnets, crystals, homeopathy and Atlantis. We are talking about a package here. You have a target/consumer group.

You play your cards really well, you are neither an idiot nor a "loonie" and this in my book makes you more blameworthy.

If science never had any more heterodox ideas it would atrophy.

You aknowledge the... originallity of your ideas... at least!

I dont put myself in the league of William Harvey or Pasteur, both of whom like others had their detractors, but we are doing good and groundbreaking bioelectromagnetics science in our lab and it is showing that the establishment is wrong, and that the NRPB and the utilities are deliberately obfuscating, procrastinating and downright deceiving the public in these matters, with the result that perhaps several hundred infants die each year from SIDS and several hundred more young children get laeukaemia each year in the UK. They could stop these tragedies at a stroke by admitting the truth.

I could listen if you didn't belong to the other side of the river. Once you make a living with selling products you are part of the game and part of the establishment.

Thanks for the offer but I will buy the CD. It's a habit at this corner of the Earth to pay our bills . You can autograph it if you want to do something special for me. Thank you.

Oh! One last observation. Distinguishing people between those who can read Plato in the prototype and the rest is quite an elitist attitude that belongs to the establishment you detest so much.

If you want to flatter my lowest ego try to reply to my questions with honesty instead.I am so easy in that.

 

[CFLarsen]

Come on, you guys, get onto the right side in this argument, and stop beleiving this establishment rubbish propaganda.

We believe facts, Roger. Not propaganda, wherever it comes from.

 

[BillHoyt]

o We don't test animals.
o We did test worms.
o I concede worms are animals.
o Bacteria are animals.
o The challenge is for humans, not mammals.
o "On every cell's surface (except cancer cells) there are glycoproteins honed by evolution to receive these signals via their sialic acid residues (negatively charged, hence receptive to positively charged cations like Ca2+)."

He blinded me with science.

 

[Cleopatra]

Use it on whom, Cleopatra?

Nobody. I wanted to ask you if you use Coghill's mood maker without actually knowing what it was.I thought that it worked the way vitamins do. Then I looked for the link and I realized what this device(?) was or claims to be.

Yes, I know that English phrase, and some of the strippers I know are very good at doing that to me. I ususally get my brains back in shortly afterwards, though.

Maybe they don't know what to do with the brains afterwards.Have you ever showed them? I have heard that women that exercise other professions eat them.

 

[davefoc]

Roger Coghill said:

To davefoc: The NRPB give field strengths both for B and E fields in their literature. They confirm that under a powerline the maximum E field is less than 10,000 V/m,

You are right. Thank you for correcting me. See quote from the NRPB document, ELF Electromagnetic Fields and the Risk of Cancer document, below:

High voltage power lines give rise to the highest electric field strengths that are likely to be encountered by people. The maximum electric field strength immediately under the highest voltage transmission line of 400 kV in the UK is about 11kVm-1 at the minimum clearance of 7.6m, although, in general will be exposed to fields will below this level. At 25m lateral displacement from the mid-span position the field strength is about 1kV m-1.

A few things to note here:
1. The electric field falls off very rapidly so that it is only 1kV m-1 25 meters from the midspan position.
2. The electric field is blocked by trees or structures substantially as you and the article mentioned.
3. Something, not mentioned by the article, but significant I think is that the body is acts as a conductor. Although it is a poor conductor it is a much better conductor than air and as such the body would tend to create a field around it that is roughly at the potential of the ground it is standing on. This is particularly true as the air cap between the body and the source of the field increases.

All of this put together suggests to me that there are very few people that would have significant long term exposure to even moderately high electrical fields and given the failure to definitively find an effect at all I am inclined to think that the health consequences of exposure to ELF electrical fields is between very small and negible.

The NRPB document suggested that low level magnetic fields when coupled with a mutation inducing agent might serve as a promoter of mutation. The document listed a lot of tests looking at this idea. As I read the document the majority of the tests found nothing, but a few tests using fairly high magnetic fields supported the proposition. Whether there is such an effect or not this report suggests it must be relatively small if it exists at all.

 

[CFLarsen]

Animal experiments. "Things that look at you" was a quote from one of the Beatles, describing his refusal to eat such things. I agree the true definition of an animal is anything that breathes.

Plants breathe too, Roger. Care for yet another redefinition of what you can perform experiments on?

I have simply lost count on just how many times you have changed your stance regarding this. And, quite frankly, deriving your ethical scientific standards based on what a former Beatle thinks, is not only highly unprofessional, it is downright ridiculous.

Do you still stand by your claim that infants and human beings are not mammals?

 

[Darat]

...snip...

As I said, the NRPB are well aware that what I am saying is right. The Prof of physics at Bristol has just lost his MRC funding for being outspoken on the EMF issue, by the way. He responded by organising that amazing picture of all the neon tube lights in a field being lit up by the HT powerline. Come on, you guys, get onto the right side in this argument, and stop beleiving this establishment rubbish propaganda.

Can you please indicate which professor you are talking about? The directory for the department of physics at Bristol can be found here: http://www.phy.bris.ac.uk/research/staff.html

I want to send him an email. - Thanks

 

[Darat]

At the dept for radiation effects in humans at Bristol University. I think you should ask the MRC not me to confirm this statement.

Can I have the name please?

 

[Cleopatra]

Cleopatra you risk losing my previous respect. If you have little regard for people who make their living by their knowledge and less respect for people who display their expertise in a topic they are discussing, who is left for you to believe in?

Mr. Coghill.

I think that you understand very well which is my point. Of course you will have to rely on my word for what I will say but I am willing to listen to everything and discuss everything but once somebody attempts to talk to me appealing to morals I have to move the discussion to another level.

 

[Cleopatra]

I have a question that "tortures" me for the last two days.

Why did you come in this forum Mr. Coghill?

 

[CFLarsen]

Mr Larsen you are being overly pedantic, and of course infants and humans are mammals, since they suck the breast, (mamma). You know very well what I meant, but persist in trying to denigrate me by putting into my words such things simply to draw attention away from the main issues. mammals is a generic term and often used separately from primates, but please let us get back to bioelectromagnetics and stop your conspicuously detractive tomfoolery.

Sure. Let's forget about your lack of scientific knowledge. Not.

Plants breathe, Roger. Care to comment?

I do not think it is up to me to disclose the name, but why not check it out with the University, and you will thereby have independent corroboration.

My bullsh1t detector just went off. Big time!

You use this professor as an example of just how dangerous it can be to speak against the establishment, and you won't tell us who he is?

You expect us to believe your word, Roger? That's not very scientific, is it?

 

[Darat]

I do not think it is up to me to disclose the name, but why not check it out with the University, and you will thereby have independent corroboration.

You stated that: The Prof of physics at Bristol has just lost his MRC funding for being outspoken on the EMF issue, by the way. and also dept for radiation effects in humans at Bristol University

According to the university's website (http://www.phy.bris.ac.uk/research/staff.html) there is only one Professor at the Dept you mention and that is Professor D L Henshaw.

Can you confirm that the person you have stated has had his MRC funding withdrawn is Professor D L Henshaw?