• Quick note - the problem with Youtube videos not embedding on the forum appears to have been fixed, thanks to ZiprHead. If you do still see problems let me know.

Been thinking about prayer.

Marquis de Carabas said:

Words are not timeless unchanging entities. Definitions are not set in stone. And Upchurch's modification of prayer's definition is not without precedent. Colloquially, we exchange pray for wish all the time. "I pray I get to make the hockey game this weekend," is a sentence I've uttered many a time.

In fact, check the second definition of pray and the fifth definition of prayer. These seem to me to be in line with what Upchurch is talking about. That that is not the intent of someone who says, "Pray for me," seems irrelevant. If Upchurch honestly wishes the best for his friend, which we have no reason to doubt, it seems completely justifiable for him to say he will pray for her.
Click to expand...

Waffling, pure and simple. If I tell my religious friend "I will pray for you" and think in my head "It's okay, I'm using it in the sense of definition #4, it's not really lying", that, my friend, is deceitful on the face of it.

Balderdash. Dishonest, mealy-mouthed balderdash. Clean up your thinking, people. Skeptics don't pray, by definition.
 
Originally posted by Sundog
Waffling, pure and simple. If I tell my religious friend "I will pray for you" and think in my head "It's okay, I'm using it in the sense of definition #4, it's not really lying", that, my friend, is deceitful on the face of it.

Balderdash. Dishonest, mealy-mouthed balderdash. Clean up your thinking, people. Skeptics don't pray, by definition.
Click to expand...
This is why I said that I, personally, would not bring up the word "pray." I feel I would be giving an impression I did not mean to give. If I was asked to pray for someone, however, I'd just go with it, because it seems pedantic to tell them, "No, I will not pray for you, but I will hope with all my heart that this works out."

It might also do us some good to remember this discussion in context. If Up's friend believes 'prayer' will help, do you think her present situation will be improved by a lecture on why it won't? Telling her she is being prayed for may help to bring about peace of mind for her, which may even be a help to resolving the situation. He may be deceiving her in some way by saying he'll pray for her (although I think it's much more a self-deception), but he'd be a d*ck to say he won't. Lesser of two evils, man.
 
Marquis de Carabas said:

He may be deceiving her in some way by saying he'll pray for her (although I think it's much more a self-deception), but he'd be a d*ck to say he won't. Lesser of two evils, man.
Click to expand...

Absolutely. I was afraid I would be misunderstood. This is one of those circumstances when a little white lie is probably the right path to follow. But let's not deceive ourselves: it IS a white lie.
 
Sundog said:

Praying means talking to God, whoever he or she might be. Any other definition is waffling.
Click to expand...

So upchurch maybe waffled a little to comfort a friend.

Good on upchurch, says me.
 
Originally posted by Sundog
Absolutely. I was afraid I would be misunderstood. This is one of those circumstances when a little white lie is probably the right path to follow. But let's not deceive ourselves: it IS a white lie.
Click to expand...
Agreed.
 
Upchurch said:
Is "hoping that something comes to pass or wishing that it does" a reasonable definition of "praying"?
Click to expand...

No. Prayer involves much more butt-cheek clenching.
 
Sometimes a prayer is torn out of us; it doesn't matter what the circumstances are, terrible or wonderful. Some people even find their lives changed afterward, and it would be an affront to the human spirit to deny it. That says nothing about the existence of deities.

Pray at the bedside of a suffering friend? Absolutely; I haven't got a minute's use for anybody who wouldn't. Of course it would only ~look~ like prayer; I'd be faking; I'd be a hypocrite; I'd be lying. If Upchurch tells a similar lie out of compassion, then good on him.

Honor the sufferer.
 
I believe Ambrose Bierce defined prayer along these lines:
A plea to alter the rules of the universe by one confessed not worthy.


I think the first part of his jokey definition hits the nail on the head--true prayer as understood by the non-skeptical when one is praying for them or anyone else --is asking that the universe's happenings conform to our wishes...that they sometimes do conform is pointed to as somehow proof that prayer works by the faithful...that they ignore or wave away the times it does not conform as somehow God saying 'no" is just logical nonsense....other more mealy-mouthed types try to make it more about meditation and self-actualization etc and not about the prayer itself...which begs the question--why not seek or try to get those goodies a more honest and direct and I would say possibly more effective way---
BY WAY OF EXAMPLE: Little league player is convinced he pitches best if he has his lucky rabbitt's foot---more likely he pitches best if he THINKS he has the rabbitt's foot --in other words he does best when he thinks he will do best--the rabbitt's foot is an unnecessary and illogical step....another example would be the four minute mile--a record thought unbreakable until someone broke it (Roger Bannister) then suddenly a feat impossible for years was accomplished by many...why? What changed? Self-actualization in believing the power was WITHIN US--not belief in power coming from without....

btw --the much ballyhooed placebo effect is useful for SUBJECTIVE but way overated and in careful trials evidence has shown that in most OBJECTIVE measureable ailments-- it is no better to use a placebo than to do nothing. hence no placebo effect.

In this case of Upchurch's it sounds like subjective improvement is all that is required--but why contribute to the irrationalization of the world by feeding into this nonsense? Again this is somehow suggesting that we humans can't fix this problem on our own that we need the great power from on high to do it for us--phooey and fiddlestix to that notion which both sells our power too short and simultaneously claims for us too much importance in the universe at large.
 
HI :)

As I see it God/the great spirit or what Name we give Him or Her :D is not any Santa Claus...

God/the great spirit --- hears our prayers --- but it not always he/she answers them in the manner we would like..

As for the question; i would have no problem with UpChurch*s notion to his former roommate that he would pray for her in his own right/method.

After all, prayer is very personal and can take all and any forms
(as I see it)

aries
 
aries said:
HI :)

As I see it God/the great spirit or what Name we give Him or Her :D is not any Santa Claus...

God/the great spirit --- hears our prayers --- but it not always he/she answers them in the manner we would like..

As for the question; i would have no problem with UpChurch*s notion to his former roommate that he would pray for her in his own right/method.

After all, prayer is very personal and can take all and any forms
(as I see it)

aries
Click to expand...

Does anyone else hear a Windham Hill album in the background?
 
Sundog said:


Does anyone else hear a Windham Hill album in the background?
Click to expand...

I don't know who Windham hill is. I could have sworn I heard John Tesh's dulcet strains, though.
 
Nyarlathotep said:


I don't know who Windham hill is. I could have sworn I heard John Tesh's dulcet strains, though.
Click to expand...

I wasn't specific because they all sound the same to me...
 
Upchurch said:
Okay, I think everyone but Hexx may have missed my point. Probably because I didn't make it very clear in my story telling.

Is "hoping that something comes to pass or wishing that it does" a reasonable definition of "praying"? I'm not talking about hoping and/or wishing to diety X, I'm talking about hoping and/or wishing. Period.
Click to expand...
I agree with Earthborn, I think there has to be some sort of ritual involved.

Perhaps meditation could be this ritual (of course, now we must define whether meditation can be simply in the mind or whether it has to be accompanied by something more :D)

Of course, you say "praying in my own special way" which could imply just about anything. If you feel wishing someone well accounts for prayer, then congratulations: It is prayer.

In other words, does prayer have to have a supernatural element to it in order for it to be prayer?
Click to expand...
I pray to Charles Darwin, various celebrities, and my old Denise succubus shrine just about everynight, I dont think any supernatural element is necessary.

And if it is true you "pray just for you", then meditation (or praying to your succubus shrine) to clear the mind or wish someone well is in fact prayer without any supernatural connotations.
 
I like Earthborn and Sackett in this. I'm coming at it differently. Having someone ask you to pray for them involves you in a momentary psychological transaction. If you truly want the best for that person you will meet them honestly in the moment.

It's important to know a few things. Nobody has the same god as anybody else and nobody prays exactly the same as anybody else. You can use the language and be congruous. That is, know a definition of the word that you will employ when the word is used in public. I have my own definition for Soul and my own definition for Prayer. It is far from what the person who has used it means by the word but I can meet them where they are at without the words getting in the way.

When a person who is very down makes the plea, they have a worldview that suggests the more prayers being lifted on the air for them, the more help they will receive. But they're not even thinking about that. They are reaching for the human exchange. They need affirmation and a moment of your personal attention.

I have said to the sad, the ill, and the grief stricken that "I will hold you in my prayers." I will hold their hand if I think it will help and like Earthborn if I thought it would help and I had a candle I would light it. I act in the moment in total support of my friends, and I do it all completely honestly within my own definitions of words they are comforted by.

If I were challenged like Upchurch, I would say that I know that they know the power of prayer because there is One who hears their prayer. There is One who hears my prayer. There is truly only One. On my side that One is me.... but they don't have to know that. My responsibility is, afterwards when I think of them, to issue a wish on the wind for their wellbeing. I would do that anyway. But in the moment I am with them I act so that they know I have their wellbeing at heart.
 
Some people would say it doesn't matter what you believe when you pray for her, what matters is what she believes.
In my experience it is always better for people to take control of their own lives instead of asking for divine help.
Upchurch asks us to assume that no practical help can be offered and sometimes that is indeed the case, although rarely. However if this person knows and respects my beliefs, why would they ask for prayer in the first place? I suggest that anyone who tries to involve an atheist in prayer is perhaps trying to 'reach out' to them rather than genuinely wanting prayer.
I would moderate my views by admitting that in the past I have been in similar situations and have meekly caved in to the request for no other reason than politeness. I have always come away from the experience feeling like I let the person (and myself?) down in some way...
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Back
Top Bottom