Audiophilia - From skeptic to believer

[this charming man]

Let me be the first to say welcome to the boards.

/that's weird, it seems like I have been here before....deja vu?

 

[ExtremeSkeptic]

It has been observed by others that if 100 amplifiers all sound different, then at least 99 are introducing some form of distortion. If we can't measure it, how can we tell where it arises?

I have discovered that the distortion comes from vibration, AC noise and EMI. High-end gear sound differently because of a different combination of those variables. But if you solve all those variables, you don't get better sound from a more expensive component.

I'm using $7000 of vibration isolation, $2000 of shielding, $7000 of power conditioning, $22 000 of cables.

I have cut back on the power conditioning now because it has weaknesses. It is better to spend the money on vibration isolation and shielding because they aren't in the signal path.

I'm using Benchmark DAC1 ($975) as my source because it has more detail than a high-end CD player when using the same tweaks. Without any tweaks the high-end player sounded better.

My tweaks cost 16 times more than the DAC and amp.

 

[Graham Jackman]

I have discovered that the distortion comes from vibration, AC noise and EMI. High-end gear sound differently because of a different combination of those variables. But if you solve all those variables, you don't get better sound from a more expensive component.

I'm using $7000 of vibration isolation, $2000 of shielding, $7000 of power conditioning, $22 000 of cables.

I have cut back on the power conditioning now because it has weaknesses. It is better to spend the money on vibration isolation and shielding because they aren't in the signal path.

I'm using Benchmark DAC1 ($975) as my source because it has more detail than a high-end CD player when using the same tweaks. Without any tweaks the high-end player sounded better.

My tweaks cost 16 times more than the DAC and amp.

Perhaps, you would be so kind as to explain clearly and concisely, how you made these discoveries. So far, you seem to have offered no quantitative measurements, which is the only evidence I'm prepared to accept. More specifically, without such measurements, how do you know that the effects you hear are not being produced by your equipment rather than being in the original signal? With so much money to throw at trivialities, I'd have thought you'd enjoy more commodious accommodation.

 

[ExtremeSkeptic]

Perhaps, you would be so kind as to explain clearly and concisely, how you made these discoveries. So far, you seem to have offered no quantitative measurements, which is the only evidence I'm prepared to accept. More specifically, without such measurements, how do you know that the effects you hear are not being produced by your equipment rather than being in the original signal? With so much money to throw at trivialities, I'd have thought you'd enjoy more commodious accommodation.

I use low-level detail as the guide when I listen. With vibration, AC noise and EMI, the low-level details are covered up and can't be heard. But once you fix the problems, you hear how the recording should sound.

 

[Graham Jackman]

I use low-level detail as the guide when I listen. With vibration, AC noise and EMI, the low-level details are covered up and can't be heard. But once you fix the problems, you hear how the recording should sound.

As I thought, you either do not understand the question or deliberately avoid meaningful answers. Having spent so much money, it must be hard to give up cherished notions, however incorrect. In future, I will only reply to meaningful dialogue.

 

[richardm]

Having spent so much money, it must be hard to give up cherished notions, however incorrect.

This has to be part of it doesn't it? It would take a brave man to spend $20,000 - two thirds of his life savings - on cables and admit that they didn't make any difference. Of course you'd have to be daft as a brush to do that in the first place.

 

[brettDbass]

Reminds me of the sort of nonsense that goes on amongst guitar players when it comes to amplifiers and effects. Everyone's looking for that magic gadget that will make everything sound "perfect". Once you get into the high-end audio gear, 99% of it is either a matter of taste, complete nonsense, or differences so minimal as to count as nonsense.

You mean stuff like the Pete Cornish cables? http://www.petecornish.co.uk/cable1.html

Yes, they're built strong, made to last, but they're 5 times more expensive than anything else on the market and might make a 1% (subjective) improvement on your actual sound, max.

 

[athon]

$40,000 worth of equipment? For music?

Holy snapping duck poo. I used to love laying back on my house mate's couch and listening to her $3000 set-up. It was heaven, and even that I thought was incredibly expensive for just listening to music. I have crappy little speakers that plug into my laptop.

Well, if I had $40,000, I can guarentee happiness with 1/10th of it put towards a music set-up and the rest I'd spend on something more rational.

Athon

 

[TobiasTheViking]

ES, you have always been a believer..

 

[ohp]

I think this section is the most telling:

That was the last tweak I did before my 2nd audio system was complete. I was done with this hobby forever, and bought a new computer display for the rest of my money. I had the display for two days and didn't listen to audio, then I listened to my audio system again and it was broken. It felt like I had slowly climbed up a volcano and when I finally reached the top I fell down into the lava.
​

What, exactly was broken?

 

[JoeEllison]

You mean stuff like the Pete Cornish cables? http://www.petecornish.co.uk/cable1.html

Yes, they're built strong, made to last, but they're 5 times more expensive than anything else on the market and might make a 1% (subjective) improvement on your actual sound, max.

Yeah, that... and 30 different replacement vacuum tubes, hand-wired boutique amplifiers, oddly-coated strings, and weird custom-wound pickups. Don't even get me started on Eric Johnson, who is a Grammy-winning guitarist who takes 7 years to make an album because he is picky about the "different tones" he can get by swapping out different brands of 9V batteries in his effects pedals.

 

[calebprime]

Good morning, everyone.
I have passed many enjoyable hours in the Forum, but this is the first time I have bothered to register. I am often amazed by the patience and persistence of the contributors in dealing with the "hard of thinking". I had seen contributions from ExtremeSkeptic and initially assumed that he was pulling your legs, yanking your chains or generally having a lend of you all, but as time went on, he either had to be serious or just didn't know when to quit. I was even more bemused by the recent photos that he posted. I would like to make two comments on the discussions.
1. While I have tinkered with hifi systems over the last 40 years, I've never let it get in the way of enjoying the music or the speech provided that the distortion is not blatantly obvious. I listen for the thoughts and emotions it elicits and the memories that it brings back. Even recordings from the thirties and forties can still evoke pleasure for their skill and novelty, rather than the musical purity. We seem to find all manner of musical reproduction acceptable and I can see no way of exactly reproducing a performance, even with the best of electronics, because the sound is ultimately going to be coloured by room acoustics or the space between headphones and ears.
2. If I accept that ExtremeSkeptic can indeed hear subtle differences in musical reproduction by different electrical/electronic components, then,, if these effects are not objectively measurable, how can we know that the differences arise from better reproduction rather than a distortion introduced by the equipment. It has been observed by others that if 100 amplifiers all sound different, then at least 99 are introducing some form of distortion. If we can't measure it, how can we tell where it arises? Extreme Skeptic also seems to have been bothered by RF breakthrough into his equipment, which is something that has rarely happened to me. Mind you, I don't leave my equipment in a partly disassembled mess as he seems to do. The pictures remind me of some of the equipment, that has to be completely dismantled for servicing.
Why don't we all get on with our lives and enjoy the music, warts and all, without agonising over inconsequential details?

well-said, sir, and welcome

Yeah, that... and 30 different replacement vacuum tubes, hand-wired boutique amplifiers, oddly-coated strings, and weird custom-wound pickups. Don't even get me started on Eric Johnson, who is a Grammy-winning guitarist who takes 7 years to make an album because he is picky about the "different tones" he can get by swapping out different brands of 9V batteries in his effects pedals.

wow. 'cmon, you've already started. tell more about this Eric Johnson.

(I like his intense Eveready period, but there's much to be said for the mellower sound of his Panasonic 9-volts--they are silkier and rounder. )

 

[ohp]

I reckon that tuning up audio systems on a purely subjective basis is like seasoning a sauce... if you spend too long tweaking, comparing each spoonful against the last, your pallet becomes so polluted that if you were to taste your sauce after 2 days (assuming it would be adequately preserved) that you might think that your sauce had somehow spoiled in the meantime.

 

[JoeEllison]

wow. 'cmon, you've already started. tell more about this Eric Johnson.

(I like his intense Eveready period, but there's much to be said for the mellower sound of his Panasonic 9-volts--they are silkier and rounder. )

Here's an example... and an article/interview.

He claims that song took him 5 minutes to come up with, and that it basically wrote itself. Then he had to learn each phrase in every position on the neck to find the best "feel". Then he had to work on the tone, which took 14 or so months. At one point on the original recording, he supposedly swaps guitars to play ONE CHORD, because he didn't like the way that one chord sounded on his main guitar.

After reading about that, I'll believe that somewhere, someone will buy into every single piece of audiophile woo imaginable.

 

[Jeff Corey]

You mean stuff like the Pete Cornish cables? http://www.petecornish.co.uk/cable1.html

Yes, they're built strong, made to last, but they're 5 times more expensive than anything else on the market and might make a 1% (subjective) improvement on your actual sound, max.

The Transparent Opus MM cables seem to be a lot more expensive. They don't advertise their prices, but various sites report that they are over $20,000 for 8' of cable.
If anyone can find a price list, I'd appreciate the actual facts.

 

[brettDbass]

Yeah, that... and 30 different replacement vacuum tubes, hand-wired boutique amplifiers, oddly-coated strings, and weird custom-wound pickups. Don't even get me started on Eric Johnson, who is a Grammy-winning guitarist who takes 7 years to make an album because he is picky about the "different tones" he can get by swapping out different brands of 9V batteries in his effects pedals.

Hahahahahaha-BONK
*replaces head*



Oh, you're not joking, are you?
That's even funnier!
Hahahahahahahahahahaaaaaaa-BONK

 

[brettDbass]

The Transparent Opus MM cables seem to be a lot more expensive. They don't advertise their prices, but various sites report that they are over $20,000 for 8' of cable.
If anyone can find a price list, I'd appreciate the actual facts.

Ah, those are hi-fi separates cables. Pete Cornish does speaker leads too, but primarily his outlandish prices are on guitar leads.
The Transparent people are BIG LEAGUE audio-fleece, um -phile operators. One of their distributors (http://transparentcable.com/resources/na_dealers.html) will surely have a price list somewhere.

 

[calebprime]

Well, he's been around since the 80's. Guess I don't know much about incredible guitarists after the late 70's, early 80's, when it began to be clear that I would never catch up to Pat Metheny...

I also checked out this version of Cliffs of Dover:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mHjDHdu8IQM

To see how much he is improvising. He's improvising a lot, though those super-fast triplet pentatonic-y runs are often similar.

But he's pretty amazing. A little plonk-y and hard with the first chords, but not insensitive. Sometimes, he even seems to be enjoying himself a little.

I love the heavy rock + Irish jig thing--there used to be a band called Moving Hearts this reminds me of a little...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DSozSJ9l5hk

The best playing is when he turns on the distortion, and oddly enough, relaxes a little with all the sustain, and just lets his hands go. He's like a greyhound--happy when he's moving at top speed. In other words, he seems stiff when he's trying to sound relaxed, and relaxed when he's just ripping it up.

Competitive guitar-playing and the odd combination of music and somewhat joyless techno speed-demon perfectionism was one of the reasons my guitar playing went straight downhill when I went to Berklee in the late 70's--this brings it all back.

Before checking out the interview--I bet his fussiness and obsession with batteries comes from having nowhere to go from already playing like this--you can't play any faster than 11 notes per second, etc.

amazing. now to the interview...

 

[Paulhoff]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=356ViUx1Ktc

Here is someone who doesn't need batteries and super priced wire, just found him on another site.

Paul

 

[JoeEllison]

Before checking out the interview--I bet his fussiness and obsession with batteries comes from having nowhere to go from already playing like this--you can't play any faster than 11 notes per second, etc.

That probably explains the general audiophile nuttiness too: when you can have anything and everything, where do you go from there? This sort of obsession seems to pick up momentum for a lot of people. You see the same thing with people who build high-end gaming computers, and people who do high-performance upgrades to their cars. At some point, the need to get that extra 1% of performance outweighs the enjoyment of the other 99%.