Another sincere question for theists...

[Atlas]

... Again I will harken back to the original context of this thread...where are the examples of god's love? Maybe I'm thick headed but I still don't see any evidence of 'love' from god.

I just had a thought that I'll throw out for attack. Many people assume the opposite of love is hate, some say it is jealosy or something else. But the Bible may be built on a different paradigm. The deity therein wields FEAR. Do what I say or perish. Suffer in torment forever, burn in hell you vile sinful creatures. That kind of thing. Somehow that gets registered as love. As if the continuum between opposites is between Fear and Love. If that sounds bizzarre it's because we look at Saddam and the Nazis and other terrorists as as fear bringers - not love bringers. We associate Fear with the darkness and love with the light. But the Stockholm Syndrome hints at the connection. Bring enough fear and pain and it is love when you stop. Throw in an extra piece of bread and it is proven love.

Up above I quote a section of John 10 which includes this verse. (Jesus speaking.)
John 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

This is one big extra piece of bread. For most people fear of death is so big that even some guy promising eternal life gets a listen. Heck, you can hawk vitamins with a promise of longer life and people respond. Face cream that makes you appear to yourself less close to death is well received.

Still, eternal life is illusory. You have to die to participate in it. Are there any bread crumbs we might enjoy here. As it turns out, there are plenty of diseases that bring you to the brink. Fevers and poxes that can make you delusional and scare the crap out of those around you. If you survive them it is more Stockholm Syndrome proven love. What else could it be?

(edit: I am offering this somewhat in opposition to my general idea which is... Love is a feeling. Contemplation of the magnificence and the light and beauty of creation delivers a feeling. The delivered feeling is a good feeling and love is a good feeling so they must spring from the same source - Creation and Love.... must come from God. It makes a poor syllogism but that doesn't disqualify it from acceptence by the masses.

We have a tendency to make love lofty because it can give us a feeling like we are walking on air. But the Bible may assume it is nothing more than the other side of fear. Even the main character of Christendom that God so loved the world with that He delivered him into the hands of fearsome torturers who nailed the guy to a cross reveals the depth of His love.)

(edit2: I alluded to the Stockholm syndrome on page 1 of this thread but there I was thinking in basic definition terms. Here I promote it as a psychological phenomenon that permeates our thought even our "holy" books. And that the love that is described by the god of that book arises out of that weird psychological connection with our aversion to pain and death.)

 

[jimmygun]

Rather than comparing god's 'love' with the Stockholm syndrome I would equate it with the abused wife or child that mistakes non violence at the moment (ie he aint wailing on them right now) as a sign of love from the abuser. It is my contention that the abusers not only inflict abuse on their charges but also blame them for the abuse. The victims are convinced it was something horrilble they did to deserve such a horrilble beating and see the so-called forgiveness as an act of love. Trouble is, the forgiveness only lasts till the abuser is ready for another round.

When I think of examples of love I think of doing positive things to reflect that love, everything from getting someone a glass of water to laying down one's life to protect them from harm. Though the bible claims that god sent his son to die in the place of sinners I don't see it as an act of love. Surely JC didn't volunteer for the task. Why else would he have cried out about being forsaken at the last moment? If I laid my life on the line, voluntarily that would be an act of love, if I demanded my son do the act that would be an act of cowardess and sadism.

My point in asking the original question is that I sincerely wish to have anyone point out to me a single act of love that the bible tells of. So far nothing.

 

[Atlas]

... It is my contention that the abusers not only inflict abuse on their charges but also blame them for the abuse. The victims are convinced it was something horrilble they did to deserve such a horrilble beating ...

If people could dispassionately look at Yahweh/Allah like they can Zeus or Odin, the parallel you draw would be plain.

I hadn't fully appreciated the idea you express:but also blame them for the abuse. It really does make clear the deity's abuser tendency. Johnathan Edwards Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God sermon comes to mind. We are despicable creatures worthy of nothing above contempt and yet God will save a handful and torment the rest in fire forever because that's what we deserve.

The rest of your post was good too but for some reason that "also blame us" thought struck a chord.

(edit: I want to add that the Stockholm syndrome perspective seems to me a victim's perspective. Yours is virtually the opposite, getting more into the psychology of the abuser. )

 

[farmermike]

Originally posted by Karen...

"It's not that I don't have any questions, but I also have this assurance that God is fundamentally loving and just and omniscient and personal and that what I now "see through a glass darkly" and wonder about, will one day be crystal clear.(Bible again)"

Again I will harken back to the original context of this thread...where are the examples of god's love? Maybe I'm thick headed but I still don't see any evidence of 'love' from god.

Karen
What's So Amazing About Grace? Philip Yancey
"Wrestling with the command to love your enemies while being persecuted under Nazi Germany, Dietrich Bonhoeffer finally concluded that it was this very quality of the "peculiar; the extraordinary, the unusual" that sets a Christian apart from others."(granted this is the ideal and all too often not the case) "Even as he worked to undermine the regime, he followed Jesus' command to "Pray for those who persecute you'" Bonhoeffer wrote
Through the medium of prayer we go to our enemy, stand by his side, and plead for him to God. Jesus does not promise that when we bless our enemies and do good to them they will not despitefully use and persecute us. They certainly will....
Why did Bonhoeffer strive to love his enemies and pray for his persecutors? He had only one answer: "God loves his enemies-that is the glory of his love, as every follower of Jesus knows." If God forgave our debts, how can we not do the same?"

2.

 

[farmermike]

Farmermike – Karen


Then actually look at it in context.


NIV 2 Thessalonians 2
9The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with the work of Satan displayed in all kinds of counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders, 10and in every sort of evil that deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie 12and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.
So they believe the lies because they had no interest in
It seem what happens is Satan shows up and performs miracles, then god shows up and performs a few more. Some people are just so fed up with all of it they don’t believe either, so god deliberately sends them delusions so that they are forced to believe the lies.
God deliberately condemns them.
God, who is omni- and is responsible for everything, deliberately creates people that he knows won’t accept him and will be condemned to hell. Which goes along with other scripture, Proverbs16:4.
****************************************
I don't suppose the fact that God knows right now, whether or not I will renounce my faith in 10 years, changes my ability to do it. He created us with free will. You are at perfect liberty to decide against God. If you're asking me if he wants you to make that decision, my answer is an emphatic no.
"It is to the prodigals...that the memory of their Father's house comes back. If the son had lived economically he would never have thought of returning." Simone Weil

Ossai

 

[farmermike]

Karen
"Truly it is an evil to be full of faults," said Pascal,"but it is a still greater evil to be full of them, and to be unwilling to recognize them." Honesty is the best policy.
Counter to the Stockholm Syndrome and abused wife thingy, the Bible describes faith in God as supremely freeing.

 

[bluess]

Karen
"Truly it is an evil to be full of faults," said Pascal,"but it is a still greater evil to be full of them, and to be unwilling to recognize them." Honesty is the best policy.
Counter to the Stockholm Syndrome and abused wife thingy, the Bible describes faith in God as supremely freeing.

I'm not sure how belief in the god described in your holy book would be freeing. According to that book, you were created by an all-powerful being who chose to make it more likely that you would sin than choose the 'straight and narrow path' and then also chose to ensure that any of its fallible creations who make a mistake suffer unendurable agony for eternity. Under this scenario, no created being is free. They struggle for the duration of their short life to not commit an unforgiveable sin which their creator created them to commit.

So, to go with the 'God the Father' analogy - your Dad raised you to desire and enjoy cakes and candies, even though these are bad for you. He keeps cakes and candies in the house, and displays them in appealing fashions to make them more tempting. The day you finally eat a cake, he throws you into the shed in the back and leaves you to suffer thirst, hunger, cold and fear. Is this the act of a loving father?

Oh, thirst, hunger, cold and fear only last to your death. Not through eternity.

I'm sorry, I just cannot understand how a rational human would believe in this god.

 

[Atlas]

Karen
"Truly it is an evil to be full of faults," said Pascal,"but it is a still greater evil to be full of them, and to be unwilling to recognize them." Honesty is the best policy.
Counter to the Stockholm Syndrome and abused wife thingy, the Bible describes faith in God as supremely freeing.

I wonder if Pascal would have said that if he had been introduced to tectonic plate theory. Would he think Earthquake Fault lines evil? And what of sunspots, these dark blemishes on the near perfect face of the sun. He was a contemporary of Galileo and may have heard of his discoveries. Both the Earth and the Sun are unwilling to recognize their faults - they must be evil indeed.

It sounds stupid, doesn't it, to talk as conscious beings about the evil inherent in unconscious entities like the Earth and Sun.

Why isn't it just as stupid to speak with God's voice as Pascal does, as a super conscious entity, explaining how full of natural created fault we are and how evil that makes us as mere awakening conscious beings.

Man's idea of good and evil must be warped from whatever super conscious entity that would be God. What our local monotheistic religions give us is a god made in our own image, full of rage and anger and jealousy and some sunshine. Come, walk with me in the desert for 40 years and I'll lead you to the promised land where everybody will hate you and try to kill your children, and this I will do because you are my people and this is my love.

 

[Ladewig]

jimmygun


Again I will harken back to the original context of this thread...where are the examples of god's love? Maybe I'm thick headed but I still don't see any evidence of 'love' from god.

farmermike (Karen)
What's So Amazing About Grace? Philip Yancey
"Wrestling with the command to love your enemies while being persecuted under Nazi Germany, Dietrich Bonhoeffer finally concluded that it was this very quality of the "peculiar; the extraordinary, the unusual" that sets a Christian apart from others."(granted this is the ideal and all too often not the case) "Even as he worked to undermine the regime, he followed Jesus' command to "Pray for those who persecute you'" Bonhoeffer wrote
Through the medium of prayer we go to our enemy, stand by his side, and plead for him to God. Jesus does not promise that when we bless our enemies and do good to them they will not despitefully use and persecute us. They certainly will....
Why did Bonhoeffer strive to love his enemies and pray for his persecutors? He had only one answer: "God loves his enemies-that is the glory of his love, as every follower of Jesus knows." If God forgave our debts, how can we not do the same?"

The example you gave is one of a person's love for God, not God's love for people. Can you provide evidence of God's love?

Quoting the Bible does not count as evidence.
Describing feelings does not count as evidence.
Listing the number of people who believe in God's love does not count as evidence.

 

[Ossai]

farmermike - Karen

I don't suppose the fact that God knows right now, whether or not I will renounce my faith in 10 years, changes my ability to do it. He created us with free will. You are at perfect liberty to decide against God. If you're asking me if he wants you to make that decision, my answer is an emphatic no.

We’re getting in a dicey area here. If god is omni- then we don’t have freewill, at best, just the illusion of it.

"It is to the prodigals...that the memory of their Father's house comes back. If the son had lived economically he would never have thought of returning." Simone Weil

You have to sin in order to be saved, or maybe, you don’t know what you have until it’s gone. What was the point of the quote?

Ossai

 

[farmermike]

The example you gave is one of a person's love for God, not God's love for people. Can you provide evidence of God's love?

Quoting the Bible does not count as evidence.
Describing feelings does not count as evidence.
Listing the number of people who believe in God's love does not count as evidence. [/B]

There's more than one kind of evidence and I think these would all be admissable in a court of law and certainly worth considering for anyone interested in the question of God. Experiential evidence of God's love comes through relationship with him.
"God cannot be discovered through reasoning(alone). However, if He is real, He must be quited inescapable and well-worth knowing. I came to the conclusion that if God really existed, finding this out was the most important step I could ever take."
Lambert Dolphin

 

[farmermike]

farmermike - Karen
We’re getting in a dicey area here. If god is omni- then we don’t have freewill, at best, just the illusion of it.

You have to sin in order to be saved, or maybe, you don’t know what you have until it’s gone. What was the point of the quote?

Ossai

Karen
I thought earlier on that everyone was upset because God HAD given them free will?

And the prodigal reference was from one to another. It sounds like you had a bad church experience growing up and turned your back on God as well as the hypocrisy. For sure,your hunger doesn't concern you until you run out of options to satisfy it.

 

[farmermike]

Man's idea of good and evil must be warped from whatever super conscious entity that would be God. What our local monotheistic religions give us is a god made in our own image, full of rage and anger and jealousy and some sunshine. Come, walk with me in the desert for 40 years and I'll lead you to the promised land where everybody will hate you and try to kill your children, and this I will do because you are my people and this is my love.

The 40 years in the desert were not part of the original deal but resulted from Israel's(man's) disobedience. You know Job wrestled with a lot of these issues-might be worth a read. I agree with you though that man's idea of good and evil is warped.
"The Catholic(christian) novelist believes that you destroy your freedom by sin; the modern reader believes, I think, that you gain it in that way. There is not much possibility of understanding between the two." Flannery O'Connor

 

[farmermike]

I'm not sure how belief in the god described in your holy book would be freeing. According to that book, you were created by an all-powerful being who chose to make it more likely that you would sin than choose the 'straight and narrow path' and then also chose to ensure that any of its fallible creations who make a mistake suffer unendurable agony for eternity. Under this scenario, no created being is free. They struggle for the duration of their short life to not commit an unforgiveable sin which their creator created them to commit.
********************************
Karen
I'd like to suggest that we don't struggle half so hard as we like to think we do. You don't suffer for eternity for making a mistake. God is in the forgiving business. You suffer for deciding you don't need any of that forgiveness, thank-you very much.
*******************************
So, to go with the 'God the Father' analogy - your Dad raised you to desire and enjoy cakes and candies, even though these are bad for you. He keeps cakes and candies in the house, and displays them in appealing fashions to make them more tempting. The day you finally eat a cake, he throws you into the shed in the back and leaves you to suffer thirst, hunger, cold and fear. Is this the act of a loving father?
**************************************
Karen
Satan is the one portrayed in the Bible as the pastry chef.

"He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, so that we might die to sins and live for righteousness; by his wounds you have been healed." 1Peter 2:24

 

[Skeptical Greg]

"He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, so that we might die to sins and live for righteousness; by his wounds you have been healed." 1Peter 2:24

Another one of your Christian paradoxes.

The most hideous acts we have or can commit have been borne by Jesus and forgiven by God if we only acknowledge them and ask for forgiveness.. While leading a decent life means nothing if one does not do the groveling thing.


Would you seek the company of any human who had the same sense of justice?

 

[Ossai]

Farmermike – Karen

I thought earlier on that everyone was upset because God HAD given them free will?

Nope, just what I noted before. If god is omni- then human freewill is nothing more than an illusion. Which neatly removes all responsibility, both good and bad, from humanity and places it square on god’s shoulders.

I'd like to suggest that we don't struggle half so hard as we like to think we do. You don't suffer for eternity for making a mistake. God is in the forgiving business. You suffer for deciding you don't need any of that forgiveness, thank-you very much.

What of those that never had the choice offered? Can you change your mind once you die? If not, why?
How can god forgive me for something I did wrong to someone else? Being ‘forgiven’ by god is nothing more than a means of escaping your responsibility to the injured party.

Satan is the one portrayed in the Bible as the pastry chef.

Only half right. In the old testament, Satan is nothing more than an angel doing his job. It wasn’t until the new testament came about that people wanted to distance their god from the bad things happening.

Ossai

 

[Ladewig]

So, to go with the 'God the Father' analogy - your Dad raised you to desire and enjoy cakes and candies, even though these are bad for you. He keeps cakes and candies in the house, and displays them in appealing fashions to make them more tempting. The day you finally eat a cake, he throws you into the shed in the back and leaves you to suffer thirst, hunger, cold and fear. Is this the act of a loving father?

Karen:
Satan is the one portrayed in the Bible as the pastry chef.

If before leaving a room, you tell a four-year-old to play with anything in the room except the matches on the table, then it is somewhat irrational to act surprised when you come back to find the room in flames.

If Eve and Adam had fewer life experiences, less common sense, less of an understanding of right and wrong, and no understanding of what deception is then why should they be held to a higher standard than a four-year-old child? In Genesis, once one hits the end of chapter 2, one doesn't have to be omnipotent to know what is going to happen next. Yet God's response is to become angry, punish them, and then come up with the response, "well, now that you've learned from the tree of knowledge, I'll have to kill my Son who is completely innocent."

 

[farmermike]

Dashing through the snow...

I don't know why God allows but simultaneously hates evil. Therefore I trust that it is a necessary part of his plan. It is no defense to say that because child pornography exists, that I am not responsible for buying it.
*****************************
I'm harking back a week or so here but I found this quote that I think is relevant to some of our earlier discussions. "Indeed it has beeen argued-and I think very rightly-that myth theories of the beginnings of Christianity are modern speculative hypotheses motivated by unreasoning prejudice and dislike. It would never entere anyone's head to ask whether Jesus had lived, unless before asking the question the mind had been darkened by the wish that he had not lived." Roderic Dunkerly Beyond the Gospels
****************************
Historical References to Jesus:

Flavius Josephus Antiquities XVIII,III
Cornelius Tacitus Annals XV, 44
Sulpicius Severus Chronicles, 30;6
Seutonius Life of Claudius/Epistles X, 96

 

[bluess]

Karen
I'd like to suggest that we don't struggle half so hard as we like to think we do. You don't suffer for eternity for making a mistake. God is in the forgiving business. You suffer for deciding you don't need any of that forgiveness, thank-you very much.

Your god is in the 'forgiving business' only if you ask first? And, no matter how heinous the sin, say 'I'm sorry' and all is ok?

This just strikes me as odd.
*******************************

Karen
Satan is the one portrayed in the Bible as the pastry chef.

"He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, so that we might die to sins and live for righteousness; by his wounds you have been healed." 1Peter 2:24

Yes, who created Satan? And for what purpose? To trip his innocent lambs as the gambol in the field?

- Sorry, its Monday morning and I'm feeling cranky.

 

[bluess]

Re: Dashing through the snow...

I'm harking back a week or so here but I found this quote that I think is relevant to some of our earlier discussions. "Indeed it has beeen argued-and I think very rightly-that myth theories of the beginnings of Christianity are modern speculative hypotheses motivated by unreasoning prejudice and dislike. It would never entere anyone's head to ask whether Jesus had lived, unless before asking the question the mind had been darkened by the wish that he had not lived." Roderic Dunkerly Beyond the Gospels
****************************

Why do you have to posit dislike and unreasoning prejudice? How about the use of one's 'God-given' intelligence to ensure that one is truly following god?