Another sincere question for theists...

[farmermike]

I don't see how this matters. Ok, Jesus said he was the only God. Good for him. Why is he right and the others wrong?

You don't see how it matters, if God lived and walked among us? How else do you explain the unprecedented effect of a "nobody's" life on humanity? None of the British monarchs, Roman Emporers or Egyptian Pharoahs come close in comparison. What happened back there? To me, it suggests that the miracles attributed to him in the Bible, must have been pretty convincing- not to mention the subjective personal relationship bit, that he advertised. Things that make you go hmm.

 

[Ossai]

Farmermike - Karen

As for the flood, I don't think from the account, that God took any pleasure in it and the very fact that it hasn't been edited out, speaks to me of the Bible's authenticity.

There was no global flood, I can point you to sites Talk Origins , geology (fissile record, erosion), zoology (evolution, basic carnivorous animal behavior), physics (air temperature, water, buoyancy), etc that basically prove the biblical flood story nothing but that, a story.

Old Testament prophesies detailing some very specific attributes of the Messiah, which were born out hundreds of years later in the person of Jesus Christ

Actually the old testament prophesies were not fulfilled by Jesus. The bits that people assume are prophecies are nothing more than de-contextualized passages. Read the actual prophecies in Genesis – they haven’t been fulfilled.

historical references in the Bible re the larger ancient world, that originally were considered false but that archaeology has since affirmed

Two points to make on this.
1 Just because a book has some accurate historical data does not make the book historically accurate.
2 You just contradicted yourself

Ah yes- the evidence, bearing in mind that histroy does not lend itself to the scientific method

So history and science don’t mix or work unless they back your preconceived ideas and then only at a cursory glance.

the enduring relevance and resonance of scripture, despite having been addressed to a particular time and place

You’ve completely lost me on this one. What enduring relevance and resonance? Almost every Christian sect has their own take on certain passages, which are sometimes quiet different. Just contrast the Jehovah’s witness and the Orthodox Catholic Church. So how is a passage enduring when each new sect or generation has a new take on it?

-Paul- a Jew of the Jews- perscecuted Christians but left his high position at great personal cost, after a life-altering encounter with God, to spread the gospel
-the disciples who feared for their lives in the wake of the crucificxion but later went to their deaths proclaiming the resurrection

Nothing too unusual here actually.
By your statement would the deaths of other fanatical believers change your mind and make you consider another religion? Would someone who knowingly faced death for their religious beliefs convince you to worship Allah?

Ossai

 

[KingMerv00]

the original statement was:

Originally posted by farmermike
O.K.- When someone lands on this planet, claiming to be God and is sufficiently convincing to change the course of human history, I'm gonna give that a closer look and some creedence to match.

You suggested the list that fit that statement

I gave a observation of the list that still only Jesus said He was God the others did not. Nothing to do with whos right or wrong just who claimed what.

And Im curious how could you say that breathing life into a dead bird is a good resume for a second coming?

I would compare the healings of Jesus and say He wins on that comparison.

But the problem with the statement of being a good resume for a second coming is that is breathing life into a dead bird has nothing to do with the second coming.

Actually I never said the list fit the statement exactly. I actually thought the original statement was way to restrictive because it places extra importance on Jesus rather than any of the other "saviors" and "chosens ones".

Why should claiming to be God give you more attention than being sent by God to do his bidding? Your response to my list shows how many Christians have completely lost any sense of objectivity.

My point about Charles Manson healing a bird was lost in the mix. There was am an was on earth who could seemingly perform miracles only 40 years ago. Imagine how much more amazing his powers could be in another 2000.

 

[KingMerv00]

I don't see how this matters. Ok, Jesus said he was the only God. Good for him. Why is he right and the others wrong?

You don't see how it matters, if God lived and walked among us? How else do you explain the unprecedented effect of a "nobody's" life on humanity? None of the British monarchs, Roman Emporers or Egyptian Pharoahs come close in comparison. What happened back there? To me, it suggests that the miracles attributed to him in the Bible, must have been pretty convincing- not to mention the subjective personal relationship bit, that he advertised. Things that make you go hmm.

I find this post a little sad. You seem to think that a normal human is incapable of impacting all of humanity unless they have magic powers. Nobodies are only nobodies if they refuse to do anything with their lives.

I don't know why you dismiss the accomplishments of the monarchs and pharoahs so readily. Building empires doesn't mean anything?

Lastly, your suggestion that his miracles must have been pretty convincing is simply not true. His "miracles" managed to convince a small group of people. Those people were particularly good at spreading the word. If he really wanted to save more of humanity he should have carved his name into the moon or rearranged the stars to spell out bible verses.

 

[farmermike]

Karen

Everyone is aware that the powers that "beed" at the time of the resurection, would have poured all their energies into producing the remains of Jesus, to stamp out what the crucifixion had apparently failed to?
And please don't suggest to me that one of the apostles/fishermen hid it so that they could enjoy a life of persecution culminating in execution. I would say that this singular historical event approaches writing his name in the sky.

*******************************************
What's sad to me, is the context this argument takes place in-limbo land. People are complaining where's the light switch, why isn't it better marked? Others are convinced the light doesn't exist. Some aren't so sure. What about the kerosene lantern, the torch? Do we need electricity? And then a couple of us, intellectual weaklings are heard saying, the switch is over here, try it and see, only to be shouted down with variations on how can you be so sure? I tried it once and it seemed to stick. Why doesn't it just turn itself on if its so good? Why should I have to lift my arm and flick the switch? If the light's too brite I might see something I don't like.
*************************************
Malcolm Muggeridge Jesus Rediscovered (again)
"Ever since I can remember, the image of earthly power, whether in the guise of shcoolmaster, mayor, judge, prime minister, monarch or any other, has seemed to me derisory....Nor, as far as I am concerned, is there any recompense in the so-called achievements of science. It is true that in my lifetime more progress has been made in unravelling the composition and mechanism of the material universe than previously in the whole of recorded time. This does not at all excite my mind, or even my curiosity. The atom has been split, the universe has been discovered and will soon be explored. Neither achievement has any bearing on what alone interests me-WHY LIFE EXISTS, and what is the significance, if any, of my minute and so-transitory part in it."

 

[Cosmo]

What's sad to me, is the context this argument takes place in-limbo land. People are complaining where's the light switch, why isn't it better marked? Others are convinced the light doesn't exist. Some aren't so sure. What about the kerosene lantern, the torch? Do we need electricity? And then a couple of us, intellectual weaklings are heard saying, the switch is over here, try it and see, only to be shouted down with variations on how can you be so sure? I tried it once and it seemed to stick. Why doesn't it just turn itself on if its so good? Why should I have to lift my arm and flick the switch? If the light's too brite I might see something I don't like.

I've certainly heard this argument before. Ask yourself, however:

If god is all-good, all-powerful, and all-knowing, and my immortal soul is on the line (I risk going to hell for not believing in him), why the **** is he leaving even the slightest shadow of doubt about his existence? What does he serve to gain from being deliberately obscure? Since he's all-knowing, he knows quite well the huge negative effect that being obscure will have on the people who believe in him, and it will turn off countless more to his existence. God seems to be doing an abysmally poor job.

If God were a business owner, he'd have filed for chapter 11 by now.

 

[KingMerv00]

I've certainly heard this argument before. Ask yourself, however:

If god is all-good, all-powerful, and all-knowing, and my immortal soul is on the line (I risk going to hell for not believing in him), why the **** is he leaving even the slightest shadow of doubt about his existence? What does he serve to gain from being deliberately obscure? Since he's all-knowing, he knows quite well the huge negative effect that being obscure will have on the people who believe in him, and it will turn off countless more to his existence. God seems to be doing an abysmally poor job.

If God were a business owner, he'd have filed for chapter 11 by now.

Just to add to what you said. Currently, at least 2/3 of the world population is wrong about the universe. This is the MINIMUM that are wrong. Clearly God is not quite as clear as Christians think he is.

 

[Ossai]

farmermike - Karen

Everyone is aware that the powers that "beed" at the time of the resurection, would have poured all their energies into producing the remains of Jesus, to stamp out what the crucifixion had apparently failed to?

You are making the assumption that a person named Jesus actually existed and performed the miracles and rose from the dead. How about looking at it from another perspective. 60 – 100 after all of it supposedly happened some people made up some stories and embellished others about another, possibly multiple, Jewish rabbi.

And then a couple of us, intellectual weaklings are heard saying, the switch is over here, try it and see, only to be shouted down with variations on how can you be so sure?

False, you keep getting shouted at to ‘flip the switch’ and prove it’s over there, yet we all remain in darkness.

Malcolm Muggeridge Jesus Rediscovered (again)

"The atom has been split, the universe has been discovered and will soon be explored. Neither achievement has any bearing on what alone interests me-WHY LIFE EXISTS, and what is the significance, if any, of my minute and so-transitory part in it."

Or to paraphrase, me me me, I want to be special. If there is a god then I’m special. There must be a god because I’m special, because I want to be.

Ossai

 

[Skeptical Greg]

...

Neither achievement has any bearing on what alone interests me-WHY LIFE EXISTS, and what is the significance, if any, of my minute and so-transitory part in it."

It is more minute than you think, with significance approaching zero. Why would introducing a / God change that?

 

[KingMerv00]

It is more minute than you think, with significance approaching zero. Why would introducing a / God change that?

Ironically, i think she just stepped on a theological land mine.

She just accidently revealed why GOD was created.

 

[farmermike]

Ironically, i think she just stepped on a theological land mine.

She just accidently revealed why GOD was created.

Don't think so...........I've had that same accusation levelled against me here before. I can't handle the meaninglessness of it all, so I latch onto the God hypothesis. That might not be a half-bad explanation, if it weren't for the fact that the God I latch onto, makes certain demands of my life and does not promise a rose garden. In fact there are plenty of verses a la pick up your cross and follow me. So now I'm a sadist right?
**************************
Cosmo - Why doesn't God hit me over the head with a baseball bat to prove his existence?
There must be some value in our voluntary search for him. He does however promise that "whoever seeks, finds, and to him who knocks the door shall be opened."
Re punishment-The Bible is pretty clear that people are not responsible for what they have not been exposed to.
*********************************
Selective archaeology? I guess the fact that archaeology has been able to verify many historical references made in the Bible leads me to believe that the rest, where science and religion seem to be in conflict, will likewise resolve themselves. I feel even more confident of this than usual, having just spent a few minutes listening to pre-historic theorey be presented as(excuse the expression) gospel truth, on the Discovery chanel. In all honesty however,the expert in question did admit that a lot of his arguments were speculative. And atheists don't understand faith?

 

[Dr Adequate]

I don't see how this matters. Ok, Jesus said he was the only God. Good for him. Why is he right and the others wrong?

No he didn't.

There is no point in any of the Gospels in which he claims to be God.

The Messiah, yes. God, no. You'd think he's have mentioned it if it was true, but apparently it slipped his mind, so theologians had to explain what he meant to say.

 

[Ossai]

farmermike - Karen

There must be some value in our voluntary search for him. He does however promise that "whoever seeks, finds, and to him who knocks the door shall be opened."

He also promises that some who seek will not find because god will send them strong delusions.
He (being the bible) also mentions that you have absolutely nothing to do with your state of grace and that god predetermined who would go to heaven and who to hell.

Re punishment-The Bible is pretty clear that people are not responsible for what they have not been exposed to.

1. Original Sin
2. Solomon’s sons
3. Sons are punished for the actions of the father to the fourth generation. (or is it fifth?)

Ossai

 

[farmermike]

No he didn't.

There is no point in any of the Gospels in which he claims to be God.

The Messiah, yes. God, no. You'd think he's have mentioned it if it was true, but apparently it slipped his mind, so theologians had to explain what he meant to say.

Karen

At the risk of taking the Bible at face value, apparently the Jewish hierarchy was similarly misinformed because this was their chief beef with him; "We have a law and according to that law he must die because he claimed to be the Son of God." John 19:7. You'd think he'd have mentioned it if it wasn't true. Me, Myself and I.
"He who has seen me has seen the Father." John 14:9
"I and the Father are one." John 10:30
***********************
What no one ripped me to shreads for questioning the authority of the discovery channel?
Anyway, my point was that I don't see any irreconcilable differences between science and religion. One deals with how, the other with why. To me, why trumps how.

 

[alfaniner]

Not all religions can be right, but all religions can be wrong.

 

[farmermike]

farmermike - Karen
He also promises that some who seek will not find because god will send them strong delusions.
***********************
Context, context, context. The preceding verse reads, "They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved." 2Th. 10b
***************************
He (being the bible) also mentions that you have absolutely nothing to do with your state of grace and that god predetermined who would go to heaven and who to hell.
***********************
I think the "call" is universal and in his ommniscience God knows who will take advantage of it and who won't. Taken in context with the rest of scripture like, "God is not willing that any should perish," and "He who calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved", it seems a logical conclusion.
********************************

1. Original Sin
2. Solomon’s sons
3. Sons are punished for the actions of the father to the fourth generation. (or is it fifth?)
Ossai
*******************************************
For sure, we're all guilty of preferring our own way to God's, but we're punished in accordance with the knowledge we either had or cared to have. "All who sin apart from the law, will also perish apart from the law....Indeed when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves..since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts....."Romans 2:12-15

It's not that I don't have any questions, but I also have this assurance that God is fundamentally loving and just and omniscient and personal and that what I now "see through a glass darkly" and wonder about, will one day be crystal clear.(Bible again)

 

[Skeptical Greg]

.......... but I also have this assurance that God is fundamentally loving and just and omniscient and personal ....

But, we have offered evidence that God is not loving and just. What assures you that he his?

 

[Atlas]

Dr. Adequate challenged Karen (Mrs. Farmermike)

There is no point in any of the Gospels in which he claims to be God.

The Messiah, yes. God, no. You'd think he's have mentioned it if it was true, but apparently it slipped his mind, so theologians had to explain what he meant to say.

Karen responds:

At the risk of taking the Bible at face value, apparently the Jewish hierarchy was similarly misinformed because this was their chief beef with him; "We have a law and according to that law he must die because he claimed to be the Son of God." John 19:7. You'd think he'd have mentioned it if it wasn't true. Me, Myself and I.
"He who has seen me has seen the Father." John 14:9
"I and the Father are one." John 10:30

In her response Karen gives us 3 quotes. Some things in the Bible are open to interpretation - You decide.

This contains Karen's 1st quote, we pick up the story right after the Jews had called out: "Give us Barabbas"...

Note that the crowd is accusing - Jesus says nothing.

<blockquote>1 Then Pilate therefore took Jesus, and scourged him.

2 And the soldiers platted a crown of thorns, and put it on his head, and they put on him a purple robe,

3 And said, Hail, King of the Jews! and they smote him with their hands.

4 Pilate therefore went forth again, and saith unto them, Behold, I bring him forth to you, that ye may know that I find no fault in him.

5 Then came Jesus forth, wearing the crown of thorns, and the purple robe. And Pilate saith unto them, Behold the man!

6 When the chief priests therefore and officers saw him, they cried out, saying, Crucify him, crucify him. Pilate saith unto them, Take ye him, and crucify him: for I find no fault in him.

7 The Jews answered him, We have a law, and by our law he ought to die, because he made himself the Son of God.

8 When Pilate therefore heard that saying, he was the more afraid;

9 And went again into the judgment hall, and saith unto Jesus, Whence art thou? But Jesus gave him no answer. </blockquote>

==============================

In Karen's 2nd quote, Jesus is talking to his disciples, he seems to immediately clarify not that he and the Father are one another but that they are in one another.

<blockquote>9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works’ sake.</blockquote>

A few verses later Jesus refers darkly to his upcoming death and uses the same in descriptor. If you believe the quote above is Jesus claiming to be God then his followup must make his disciples God too?

<blockquote>19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you. </blockquote>

=============================

Karen's third quote is the most direct and most compelling. Again, it's open to interpretation. Here Jesus is already deep into a "people as sheep" metaphor when he talks of his death almost as suicide. Many think he's crazy. Later he gets a chance to clear things up, He reminds them that they've seen him operate and his argument builds until verse 30 which Karen quotes. Then the rabble readies to stone him for blasphemy, Jesus back pedals saying something like: "Hey guys, I didn't mean it like that, you misunderstand me" - and runs away.

<blockquote>11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.

12 But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep.

13 The hireling fleeth, because he is an hireling, and careth not for the sheep.

14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.

15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.

18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

19 There was a division therefore again among the Jews for these sayings.

20 And many of them said, He hath a devil, and is mad; why hear ye him?

21 Others said, These are not the words of him that hath a devil. Can a devil open the eyes of the blind?

22 And it was at Jerusalem the feast of the dedication, and it was winter.

23 And Jesus walked in the temple in Solomon’s porch.

24 Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly.

25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father’s name, they bear witness of me.

26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand.

30 I and my Father are one.

31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.

32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?

33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?

35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;

36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.

38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.

39 Therefore they sought again to take him: but he escaped out of their hand...</blockquote>

(edit: These quotes are presented in Karen's order which is actually the reverse order of appearence in the gospel. What is interesting is that after he was nearly stoned (3rd quote) he is not so forceful anymore, saying only that: The Father is in me (2nd quote). In the 1st quote he is silent on the subject but if you look up and read the whole passage he is defiant but non confrontational blaming, not Pilate, but someone else. - I just noticed that and thought I'd add it. Make of it what you will.)

 

[jimmygun]

Originally posted by Karen...

"It's not that I don't have any questions, but I also have this assurance that God is fundamentally loving and just and omniscient and personal and that what I now "see through a glass darkly" and wonder about, will one day be crystal clear.(Bible again)"

Again I will harken back to the original context of this thread...where are the examples of god's love? Maybe I'm thick headed but I still don't see any evidence of 'love' from god.

 

[Ossai]

Farmermike – Karen

Context, context, context. The preceding verse reads, "They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved." 2Th. 10b

Then actually look at it in context.

KJV 2 Thessalonians 2
2:9 – 2:11
Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders ,
And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

NIV 2 Thessalonians 2
9The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with the work of Satan displayed in all kinds of counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders, 10and in every sort of evil that deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie 12and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

It seem what happens is Satan shows up and performs miracles, then god shows up and performs a few more. Some people are just so fed up with all of it they don’t believe either, so god deliberately sends them delusions so that they are forced to believe the lies.
God deliberately condemns them.

I think the "call" is universal and in his ommniscience God knows who will take advantage of it and who won't. Taken in context with the rest of scripture like, "God is not willing that any should perish," and "He who calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved", it seems a logical conclusion.

God, who is omni- and is responsible for everything, deliberately creates people that he knows won’t accept him and will be condemned to hell. Which goes along with other scripture, Proverbs16:4.

Ossai