Another Mineta thread

[BCR]

This video does not sound authentic to me.

I notice that it was just posted (1 day ago). Anyone know its source, background, vetting, etc?

Did you not read the title clip? Andrews AFB ATC audio. Source: Me

ETA: I kept all of these audios online for years. But finally I realized I was an idiot spending hundreds of dollars a year in bandwidth just to keep them online. I put a lot of them on MegaUploads, but drats, the federal government put an end to that. So, if you need the source files, they can still be downloaded in a bulk package here.

 

[Reheat]

I'm not sure why Tom is questioning the authenticity this audio file. Cheney said he gave a shoot down authorization at around 10:15 (he gave it to the Secret Service who were communicating with Andrews AFB). The audio tape time is 10:16.

We also know that the Andrews Fighters had shoot down authority when they launched, as well, based on their statements. They did not receive the NORAD frequencies and eventually fall under the control of NORAD until sometime in the 10:45 - 11:00 time frame.

The Langley Fighters were overhead DC at this time, but as far as I know they did not receive this information thru NORAD. They eventually had shoot down authorization some time later. (Exact time is unknown to me)

 

[BCR]

This video does not sound authentic to me.

I notice that it was just posted (1 day ago). Anyone know its source, background, vetting, etc?

Here ya go. Uploaded the source file for you just so there will be no misunderstandings

 

[tfk]

Did you not read the title clip? Andrews AFB ATC audio. Source: Me

ETA: I kept all of these audios online for years. But finally I realized I was an idiot spending hundreds of dollars a year in bandwidth just to keep them online. I put a lot of them on MegaUploads, but drats, the federal government put an end to that. So, if you need the source files, they can still be downloaded in a bulk package here.

I appreciate what you've provided.

I simply asked for the source & vetting.

You can't be the source, BC, because you didn't make the recording.

I see (& saw) that you say that it came from Andrews ATC. I assume your post means that you got if from somebody. Perhaps as a part of an FOIA request. That would be the info that I was asking for.

I said that it doesn't sound authentic to me. I didn't say that it wasn't authentic.

I was asking simply because it is always good to check. I don't mind if truthers use crappy, unverified, falsified recordings (with sounds of explosions added, for example). I do mind if debunkers start getting sloppy with our info.

You have clearly got authentic recordings here.

Having heard the rest of the recording, now I'm sure.

Thank you.
___

By way of explanation...

The thing that sounds strange is that it sounds too clean, no chatter of any sort in the background, nobody stepping on his transmission, no loss of squelch, etc.

This is very unusual for any ATC that I've ever heard in any high traffic, urban area. Especially on the east coast, in the Washington - Boston corridor. Usually you've got 4 - 10 pilots waiting for someone to take a breath so that they can break in & state their requests.

The same warning starting at 37:25 sounds like the transmissions that I'm used to hearing. Messy.

But the thing that fooled me is that all of my experience has been with civilian ATCs at civilian airfields.

Listening to the source file you then posted (preceding post), I can tell that the recording is authentic.

What is clear from listening to the file that you posted is that Andrews dealt with far, far fewer planes than any of the civilian airports in the Washington area on that date & time. I can also tell that there is far more dead air on the tower frequencies than I am used to.

There is simply far, far fewer military aircraft operating than civilian.
___

BTW, one transmission (starting @ 20:05) sounds like it says that "Bully 1 & 2 will be parking on Echo & Army with Live".

Reheat, does "... with Live" refer to armaments?

Later (@31:28 ), Bully 1 has returned, and the tower says "Bully 1, taxi to arm. Echo is closed."

Same question. What is "arm"?
___

Also, anyone who thinks that there was a stand-down should start listening at @ 20:50. At about 21:50, Bully-1 gets order to take off to intercept a plane. It is imminently clear from the recording that there is zero dickaround factor in getting him off the ground.

Again at 25:00, a second flight (CAPS 1) requests permission to depart. There is ZERO hesitation. He's gone.


tom

 

[BCR]

You can't be the source, BC, because you didn't make the recording.

Yes I did. I made the little YouTube video all by my little lonesome. But of course I did copy/paste that little segment of audio from a larger file created by the FAA from the original ADW recording.

 

[Reheat]

Tom, echo taxiway was apparently being used for arming the fighters. Perhaps it was temporary for some reason....maybe closer to the armament storage area, perhaps...

Yea, arming live is referring to arming the aircraft with real live weapons. They began arming the fighters returning from NC immediately upon their return from that mission except for Bully 1, then began arming him after his short excursion over the Pentagon and up the river a bit...

Caps was Sasserville and Penny a separate flight of two that were only partially armed. If you listened later the Wild flight was maybe the same aircraft as the returning Bully 2 & 3 rearmed and refueled. If so they did the refueling and rearming in about 45 minutes or so... Amazing!

They can refuel and load weapons at he same time if necessary (If it was the same aircraft, they did do that). It's dangerous, but they do practice that. They can also refuel and load weapons with the engines running. Now, that is really dangerous, but the capability exists. A-10's do that routinely in order to generate sorties more rapidly...

One of the most impressive things about this in my view that's not on the tape is that Bully 1 launched with very little fuel, taking-off with no afterburner and then returning with Emergency Fuel, no doubt. He sounds calm, but he was extremely short on fuel and flew a straight-in approach. He also went to the arming area and was being regenerated to fly again...

Once they made the decision to go the folks at Andrews really hustled in generating aircraft. There was no "foot dragging" and they did a phenomenal job of getting it all together...

The ANG has mostly very experienced and capable people who enjoy what they do and are very good at it... They don't have the discipline problems and some of the other extraneous issues that plagues the active force.

All military airfields are not as slow as Andrews was on the tape.. But, they generally don't have the same amount of traffic as a busy civilian airport. It's sporadic and not consistent like busy civilian ones...

Regarding the radio clarity... Most military towers transmit on both VHF and UHF simultaneously, so maybe that makes a difference combined with less busy radio traffic...

You probably noted that both Ground and Tower were being handled by the same controller. That is not normal as they are usually separate, but obviously they were not busy, so they combined the two during the period of the tape...

 

[tfk]

Yes I did. I made the little YouTube video all by my little lonesome. But of course I did copy/paste that little segment of audio from a larger file created by the FAA from the original ADW recording.

BC,

No, you didn't make the recording that I wanted to validate, unless you knew about 9/11 ahead of time & managed to talk your way into the Andrews AFB ATC with a recorder & plug into their radios. which I certainly doubt.

I was not trying to validate the authenticity of a YouTube recording. That is irrelevant to me & I'll go out on a limb by saying "irrelevant to anyone".

I was trying to validate the authenticity of the voice & the events represented in the recording from Andrews ATC.

The original recording that you provided could easily have been a hoax.

It is my responsibility (IMO) to verify that the info that I spread to others is valid, is not a hoax.

If I ever cite your recording, it is my obligation to make sure that it is not a hoax.

There are a couple of ways to do that.

One is to check on the paper trail of the ORIGINAL information.

This is: person speaking, identified by name and/or occupation
was recorded by: exact group
on: exact date

It was obtained by: person
directly from: organization
on: date

Along with some reasonable statement of the path that the info took to your hands.

This is the same process that one goes thru validating ANY info.

A second way to get a very good indication of its veracity is by listening to more of the recording. This method is not foolproof, but in this case, is good enough to be conclusive.

In my opinion. Probably not in some Truthers' opinions, who believe that da gubbamint can fake any recording that it wants.

The point here is that you know the big picture associated with all of your info (if you've done your homework).

I don't.

Asking for validation of all information is not only reasonable. It is (again, IMO) obligatory.

It is not questioning your honesty. That is EXACTLY the knee jerk, soap opera, theatrical response that charlatans like Steven Jones, Chandler, Harrit, et al. take. You'll note that Millette, whenever asked detail questions about his methods does not get offended, fly off the handle & storm out of the conversation. He simply answers the questions. Contrast that response to the responses of Jones & Harrit & Chandler.

Thanks for the recording.


tom

 

[FrankHT]

It's probably worth explaining to people what you mean by "course update".

The FAA has a system called the Traffic Situational Display (TSD) which is a map of all logged flight paths. The various centres can update this display when they change an aircraft's flight path for whatever reason.

The TSD is an independent system which is not updated by radar data, nor is it based on radar data.

Yet,you're claiming they used the TSD to 'track' aircraft they KNEW were off course and NOT following their filed flight plan ! Then turn round & say everyone did a bang up,good job on 911. Lol,it's extreme incompetence at the very least,yet not a single head rolled ! How do you explain that? Certainly THEY KNOW how THEIR OWN system works,don't they?

 

[BCR]

BC,
I was not trying to validate the authenticity of a YouTube recording. That is irrelevant to me & I'll go out on a limb by saying "irrelevant to anyone".

I was trying to validate the authenticity of the voice & the events represented in the recording from Andrews ATC.

The original recording that you provided could easily have been a hoax.

It is my responsibility (IMO) to verify that the info that I spread to others is valid, ....


tom

Then listen to the original recordings. They have been in the public domain now for years. Don't rant at me because you don't do your homework.

 

[Boone 870]

Just wanted to bump this thread to add some more documentation and references for the future when the subject gets rehashed again. Belger claimed he did not talk to Mineta about the plane that struck the Pentagon.

Monte Belger interview with commission staff.

He does remember hearing about and A/C bearing down on WH at low altitude before Pentagon strike. Does not recall talking to Mineta about this.

PDF page 19: http://911myths.com/images/c/cc/Team8_Box6_FAA_HQ_MonteBelger.pdf



This may be the same source with a little different wording.

Belger clearly recalled reports of a "high speed VFR" headed eastward, though Belger does not recall speaking with the Secretary about this. The aircraft was characterized as an unidentified primary radar track that airtraffic had identified east of Dulles.

Page 5: http://www.scribd.com/doc/17183201/t8-b6-Faa-Hq-Monte-Belger-Fdr-42004-Mfr-835


Mineta stating that Mrs. Cheney was also in the PEOC when he arrived. (3:45)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=u-5PKQTUz5o

"AUTHOR" (codename for Mrs. Cheney) was logged into the PEOC at 9:52. According to Aidan Monaghan's book, page 41.


Secret Service agent says he does not move the vice president until after AA77 made its turn to the south.

No move [is] made to evacuate the vice president” from his White House office. The officer who takes the call will explain, “[I was] about to push the alert button when the tower advised that the aircraft was turning south and approaching Reagan National Airport.

http://www.historycommons.org/timeline.jsp?day_of_9/11=dickcheney&timeli...

 

[Oystein]

...
Secret Service agent says he does not move the vice president until after AA77 made its turn to the south.


http://www.historycommons.org/timeline.jsp?day_of_9/11=dickcheney&timeli...

That's the turn south to begin the 330° loop, right?
According to the NTSB Flight Path Study, that was at 09:34, and AA77 was about 3.5 miles west-southwest of the Pentagon.

The claim that they didn't start moving Cheney out of his White House office until after this time, 9:34, would be at odds with the Secret Service log in Aidan Monaghan's book, page 41, which has the Cheney group entering the PEOC at 9:33.

But either way, Cheney would have been too late to the PEOC to be told AA77 was out 50 miles, and Mineta would have been too late for that twice over.

 

[Boone 870]

That's the turn south to begin the 330° loop, right?

You are correct.

According to the NTSB Flight Path Study, that was at 09:34, and AA77 was about 3.5 miles west-southwest of the Pentagon.

The claim that they didn't start moving Cheney out of his White House office until after this time, 9:34, would be at odds with the Secret Service log in Aidan Monaghan's book, page 41, which has the Cheney group entering the PEOC at 9:33.

I also have doubts about the 9:33 time of arrival for Cheney at the PEOC. As you said, they didn't remove him until 9:34, and they had no specific reason to come in and basically carry him out of the room until the controllers at Dulles called the White House to warn them of the approaching aircraft. The vice president also stopped in the tunnel before the PEOC and called the president before entering.

But either way, Cheney would have been too late to the PEOC to be told AA77 was out 50 miles, and Mineta would have been too late for that twice over.

You are correct again.

I'm currently looking for more verification of Mrs. Cheney's arrival time to add to the reasons why Mineta was wrong.

 

[Boone 870]

Finally, after six years of existence the pilots for 9/11 truth forum has made itself useful for something.

SA XXX notified Mrs. Cheney on both crashes, as they were being reported on television. SA XXX told SA YYY that the JOC was reporting on AAA of an inbound aircraft heading toward the White House. SA XXX decided to evacuate Mrs. Cheney to the Naval Observatory. While motorcading to the Naval Observatory, XXX contacted ASAIC ZZZ via telephone. ZZZ told XXX that the suspect airplane had crashed into the Pentagon. Since the motorcade was on 15th street and near the White House, ZZZ advised XXX to respond to the White House shelter and join Vice President Cheney. XXX stated that the motorcade arrived at the White House through Gate A-5 and was met by ZZZ who escorted Mrs. Cheney directly to the shelter area. They arrived in the shelter approximately 9:52 a.m.

XXX noted that personnel were in the process of evacuating the White House as their motorcade arrived.

Link to this quote can be found in post #12 on this thread:

http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum/index.php?showtopic=22200

Or this link for direct download:

http://www.mediafire.com/?vydb4nxdmyy#!

 

[Senenmut]

Finally, after six years of existence the pilots for 9/11 truth forum has made itself useful for something.



Link to this quote can be found in post #12 on this thread:

http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum/index.php?showtopic=22200

Or this link for direct download:

http://www.mediafire.com/?vydb4nxdmyy#!

remember what belger said:

Belger learned of the crash into the Pentagon shortly after it happened. He and Garvey
got on the phone with Norm Mineta who decided to bring everything down (around 9:45)which was implemented. Belger continued to monitor the system as it executed this
order. All aircraft were down and the system grounded by 12:15.

from mineta's commission record:

"within a few minutes, american flight 77 crashed into the pentagon. at this time, as we discussed the situation with the north american aerospace defense (norad) commander and his staff, we considered implementing an emergency system of coordinated air traffic management to allow maximum use for defensie activities. it was clear that we had to clear the airspace as soon as possible to stop any further attacks and ensure domestic airspace was available for emeregency and defensive use. so, at approximately 9:45am less than one hr after i had first been notified of an airplane crash in new york, i gave the faa the final order for all civil aircraft to land at the nearest airport as soon as possible. it was the first shutdown of civil aviation in the history of the united states."

see how belger is right on target with what mineta says.

 

[Boone 870]

see how belger is right on target with what mineta says.

Belger has also said that the order to land all aircraft came from the ATCSCC (I'll try to dig up the quote when I have more time).

He also said he does not recall talking to Mineta about the "high-speed VFR" that was first reported east of Dulles, the aircraft that eventually crashed into the Pentagon.

Also, Mineta said that Mrs. Cheney was already in the PEOC when he arrived. The Secret Service did not take her there until after the Pentagon crash.

 

[Dog Town]

Also, Mineta said that Mrs. Cheney was already in the PEOC when he arrived. The Secret Service did not take her there until after the Pentagon crash.

Debunked! Sadly, it won't help anyone touting the bogus "Colby" claim in their sig. Nice work though!

 

[Senenmut]

Belger has also said that the order to land all aircraft came from the ATCSCC (I'll try to dig up the quote when I have more time).

ok so? belger puts mineta saying that at 945.

He also said he does not recall talking to Mineta about the "high-speed VFR" that was first reported east of Dulles, the aircraft that eventually crashed into the Pentagon.

the plane coming down the river approach that berger was relaying to mineta was probably NOT what crashed into the pentagon. so berger was correct in saying that. berger probably saw the radar tracks after it happened. mineta said he also saw the radar tracks after it happened. from those tracts, berger probably felt that the down the river approacing aircraft (or whatever it was) was in fact not 77. so belger did not talk to mineta about what hit the pentagon.

Also, Mineta said that Mrs. Cheney was already in the PEOC when he arrived. The Secret Service did not take her there until after the Pentagon crash.

i think you got the hots for mrs cheney!! mineta has a series of events that take place that makes sense. even belger states he gave the order at 945. it makes sense. period.

 

[Boone 870]

ok so? belger puts mineta saying that at 945.

Not necessarily. We don't know if the "(9:45)" was a note made by the person interviewing him or if Belger actually said it himself. We'll know for sure when they release the recordings of the interview.

Let's say he did say 9:45. That still does not put Mineta in the PEOC as flight 77 approached DC, it only puts him there before the commission's claimed time.

Others agree that Mineta thinks he ordered ATC zero when he actually didn't:

Until last Tuesday, when, at the end of a speech before the Aero Club of Washington, D.C., the Washington Post's veteran transportation reporter Don Phillips let the cat out of the bag. Phillips told his audience he felt it necessary to make a "historical correction," although FAA officials had begged him to maintain the fiction. Phillips proposed, charitably, that Mineta's order was a simple misunderstanding; that the secretary was unaware that "[f]or at least 15 minutes before Mineta's conversation with the FAA, controllers were bringing the planes down ... at the nearest airport."

http://www.911myths.com/index.php/Norman_Mineta

the plane coming down the river approach that berger was relaying to mineta was probably NOT what crashed into the pentagon. so berger was correct in saying that.

If that is what you believe, then what is there left to debate?

berger probably saw the radar tracks after it happened. mineta said he also saw the radar tracks after it happened. from those tracts, berger probably felt that the down the river approacing aircraft (or whatever it was) was in fact not 77. so belger did not talk to mineta about what hit the pentagon.

Sorry, Belger says the "high-speed primary" was the plane that crashed into the Pentagon and knew it before he got a phone with Mineta.

i think you got the hots for mrs cheney!! mineta has a series of events that take place that makes sense. even belger states he gave the order at 945. it makes sense. period.

No, it does not make sense. Mineta/Belger describe an aircraft approaching from the northwest when American 77 approached from the west.

Mrs. Cheney is irrelevant. However, what the Secret Service says is.

 

[Senenmut]

Not necessarily. We don't know if the "(9:45)" was a note made by the person interviewing him or if Belger actually said it himself. We'll know for sure when they release the recordings of the interview.

to me, it reads as though belger said 945 and then the person writing the memo just paraphrased or gave a quick synopsis of the event. so when are they suppose to release the interview? it would be nice if someone could interview belger!

Let's say he did say 9:45. That still does not put Mineta in the PEOC as flight 77 approached DC, it only puts him there before the commission's claimed time.

even if the down the river approaching target was not what hit the pentagon, it happened very close to when the pentagon got hit.
there is a whole logical flow about mineta's timeline:
mineta:
"Then they came in and said it was 10 miles out. Soon after that, I was talking to the deputy director of the FAA, and he told me they had lost the target off the screen. Soon after that, then, the vice president was informed that there was an explosion at the Pentagon. So I was trying to relate with the air traffic controllers where that plane went to see whether it was close to the Pentagon. The radar is very difficult to pinpoint it to a ground location.
But while I was talking to the FAA, someone broke into the conversation and said, 'Mr. Secretary, we have just had confirmation from the Arlington County Police Department that they saw a commercial airliner-an American airline-go into the Pentagon.
Well, its like anything else, if you see one of something occur you consider that an accident. But when you see two of the same thing occur then you know that there is a pattern or a trend. In this instant we had three of the same thing occur, and that is a program or a plan. So I then informed the FAA to bring all the airplanes down."

Others agree that Mineta thinks he ordered ATC zero when he actually didn't:

http://www.911myths.com/index.php/Norman_Mineta

that story you linked reads like fiction.
from the link- "although FAA officials had begged him to maintain the fiction..."
who are these unnamed faa officials so we can ask them. haha...

If that is what you believe, then what is there left to debate?

what we can debate is what that "bogey" was coming from the down the river approach. was it a wargame "input".
from blogger:
NORAD OPERATIONS CENTER ASKS FOR 'EXERCISE INPUTS' TO BE STOPPED
At 10:12 a.m., an officer at the NORAD operations center, "Captain Taylor," called NEADS and spoke to Captain Brian Nagel, the chief of live exercises there. After introducing himself, Taylor said, "What we need you to do right now is to terminate all exercise inputs coming into Cheyenne Mountain." Nagel gave Taylor an extension number and asked him to call it to get the exercise inputs stopped. Taylor replied, "I'll do that." [4] "Inputs," according to an article in Vanity Fair, are simulated scenarios that are put into play by a simulations team during training exercises. [5]

Sorry, Belger says the "high-speed primary" was the plane that crashed into the Pentagon and knew it before he got a phone with Mineta.

link please. so now in you mind, when mineta was speaking about the DRA bogey, was he speaking before or after belger knew about the "high-speed primary" and got on the phone with mineta? i cant follow your logic with that above sentence.

No, it does not make sense. Mineta/Belger describe an aircraft approaching from the northwest when American 77 approached from the west.

yep. about the same time too. so when would you like that mineta/belger conversation to take place?

Mrs. Cheney is irrelevant. However, what the Secret Service says is.

lol. as oystein pointed out, those SS people have times all over the place.

 

[Dog Town]

it would be nice if someone could interview belger!

Get to it, then! Do something, other than whine!