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#alternativefacts

jaydeehess said:
Had Trump simply ignored the photo comparison this would have blown away in a few days. Instead HE and his team chose to kvetch about it and prolong it.
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That's a flaw he needs to correct.

His tendency to respond/comment on such things.

It's going to be a constant source of trouble if he doesn't learn to let those things go.
 
*Shrugs* Now people are starting to get how skeptics/rationalist have felt for the last few decades.
 
Argumemnon said:
Yes, we've clearly been approaching this "reality" thing all wrong.
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*Laughs* Obviously.

No but seriously warts and all honest this whole freak out over the "Alternative Facts" things is sorta annoying me for just that reason.

People didn't freak out when reality denial was the course of the day in science but now that it's in politics oh let's all panic?

Do you realize this is how the world has always looked to me? People just straight up denying reality isn't new to me.
 
ponderingturtle said:
It is basic trump though. He can't accept that anything is greater than him so he must be the biggest and greatest of all time or else. His ego will demand nothing else.

Lying works, look what 30 years of lies did to hillarys reputation.
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I fully agree that his ego can accept nothing less than being the biggest and greatest of all times, and I am convinced that he sees himself as a near God-like figure who has been destined by fate (and enabled by his own "huge" talents) to save the USA and the rest of the world in this, their "moment of desperate need." Once I began to see Trump in this light almost all of his actions finally made sense to me.

Trump would certainly not be the first individual to have taken over a government on the basis of being "the anointed one." Having an enormous level of self-confidence and an overwhelming sense of destiny not only drives the individual to obtain power, but often convinces others to support them. Unfortunately the ultimate outcome has usually been a disaster for all concerned.

As a result it is hard for me to determine if Trump is technically "lying" even though there is no question that almost everything he says is a falsehood. Doesn't one have to recognize that what they are saying is a lie to be a liar? I think that Trump's brain lives in a highly delusional sphere and really does not consider whether what he says has an objective truth or falsehood. It doesn't matter to him. What he thinks is what is real to him- any objective evaluation is meaningless. If someone dying of thirst in a desert claims to see a swimming pool with a waiter serving chilled Mai Tai's instead of a sand dune, are they a liar? Or just mentally scrambled?

The question is much easier to answer in regard to many members of his "team": yes, they are liars. Boot licking, morally corrupt, slimy, depraved, traitorous liars. They know that Trump is crazy and dangerous, yet they seek to exploit him for their own purposes, knowing that they are dispensing lies to stay within his good graces. They would fit well in Dante's Eighth Circle of Hell (frauds), although it is hard to place them within the subdivisions of this circle: Bolgia 2 (flatterers), or Bolgia 5 (corrupt politicians), or Bolgia 7 (evil counselors and advisors).

I do feel a bit strongly about this. I will stop here to wipe the flecks of spittle off my keyboard.
 
LTC8K6 said:
That's a flaw he needs to correct.

His tendency to respond/comment on such things.

It's going to be a constant source of trouble if he doesn't learn to let those things go.
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Why? it is a nice distraction from his executive order not to enforce obamacare.
 
LTC8K6 said:
That's a flaw he needs to correct.

His tendency to respond/comment on such things.

It's going to be a constant source of trouble if he doesn't learn to let those things go.
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I think running Josef Stalin's playbook is a bigger "flaw"
 
Mike! said:
I'm a Southern Illinois right wing loon and I'm appalled by the shear stupidity of the lie myself. Of course Obama's inaugural was bigger, he was the first black president, huge numbers of the black populous went to see it, along with a vast number of white, yellow and red people too. It was a big deal, and rightly so. Why Trump would even try to think otherwise is mind boggling in and of itself. I voted for the bastard, not because I liked him, but, like a lot of others, I hated Hillary. I still have hope for the guy, but he's got to stop this nonsense, quickly.
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Which people were saying when he was running for the nomination, and when he won the nomination, and when he won the election, so I wouldn't hold my breath for any Damascene conversion.
 
Late 2015: There's no way Trump going to run for President.
Early 2016: There's no way Trump is going to get the nomination.
Late 2016: There's no way Trump is going to win the election.
Early 2017: There's no way Trump is going to keep acting like that.
Late 2017: There's no way Trump is going to give us over the Zorlackian Star Empire.
Early 2018: So how are you doing on your dilithium mining quota for the month?
 
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JoeBentley said:
Late 2015: There's no way Trump going to run for President.
Early 2016: There's no way Trump is going to get the nomination.
Late 2016: There's no way Trump is going to win the election.
Early 2016: There's no way Trump is going to keep acting like that.
Late 2016: There's no way Trump is going to give us over the Zorlackian Star Empire.
Early 2017: So how are you doing on your dilithium mining quota for the month?
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Agh, I've been so preoccupied with the Kardashians that I completely missed the arrival of the Zorlackian Star empire!
 
marplots said:
There is no alternative to that fact, but there are alternative claims as to what the fact actually is.
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But that is not what we look at here. They are not saying, "in our estimate" or even "in our opinion", which could both be legitimate. They are saying "this is alternative fact".

There is no such thing. Not even if Donald Trump say so.

Hans
 
marplots said:
Two ways off the top of my head.
1) The pictures were taken at different times during crowd wax and wane or were altered in some fashion.
2) The public transport tells you how many people used the service but not where they went or how often the same individual was counted.

How's that?

(Please note I am not advocating one answer as more correct than the other.)
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When one is without a sensible argument, propose a conspiracy....
 
jaydeehess said:
Had Trump simply ignored the photo comparison this would have blown away in a few days. Instead HE and his team chose to kvetch about it and prolong it.
Click to expand...

LTC8K6 said:
That's a flaw he needs to correct.

His tendency to respond/comment on such things.

It's going to be a constant source of trouble if he doesn't learn to let those things go.
Click to expand...

ponderingturtle said:
Why? it is a nice distraction from his executive order not to enforce obamacare.
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This line of conversation is important and should not be lost in the noise. Trump wants the left and the press all wrapped up in this obvious but unimportant lie so they don't notice what he is doing. And if they do notice and report on what he is doing, it will just be the press getting worked up again, those people.

He is creating so much outrage noise that the signal gets lost.
 
JoeBentley said:
*Laughs* Obviously.

No but seriously warts and all honest this whole freak out over the "Alternative Facts" things is sorta annoying me for just that reason.

People didn't freak out when reality denial was the course of the day in science but now that it's in politics oh let's all panic?

Do you realize this is how the world has always looked to me? People just straight up denying reality isn't new to me.
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No, it really isn't new. However, I really do think that it's reached a level of normalcy and ubiquity that is unheard of in modern society. Technology has given us access to more and more fringe ideas, and most people can't be bothered to fact-check all of it, nor should they be expected to. They become dulled to the lies and accept them more readily. And that, as I said earlier, is dangerous.
 
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marplots said:
There is no alternative to that fact, but there are alternative claims as to what the fact actually is.

This is so common it's trivial. Walk into any court of law and you'll find people arguing for one set of facts over another. Both parties agree there is only one true state of affairs, yet each side feels confident their story is correct.
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Or at least that they can convince the jury that their story is correct.
 
Skeptic Ginger said:
I think it was the other way around*, Trump had bigger crowds if you counted TV viewers, but but if you corrected for population growth, it was not the biggest.

Trump's mental illness made him feel the need to have that biggest crowd ever that he had Spicer lie about. Had a big crowd been enough as it likely would have been for a person without the need to be the greatest, he could have saved himself the embarrassment of #alternativefacts. Now it has come to many people's attention the ludicrousness of his lies.

*It will be interesting to see which of us has the false memory. I am not certain that isn't me. It very well could be given my brain is saturated with his attendance numbers and I know his TV numbers were large.
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Sorry, just realised I didn't phrase that clearly. Yes - Trump's audience as a percentage of population went down, I meant only that the population numbers have increased.
 
marplots said:
The commonest example is the value of a $5 bill. It's not in the paper or the ink, it's in our shared belief that $5 is worth, well, five dollars. This is as much a fact as any other.
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Your wrong here. It's not that we have a shared belief that it's worth $5 that makes it worth $5, it's that the Government produces it with a guarantee of it being worth $5. Thus it's worth $5 because the Government says that it is, and promises to back that up, not because we just all believe it.
 
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