acupuncture?

[OMGturt1es]

so i tagged along with the fiancee when she visited her doctor today. on the front desk, we both noted a sign announcing that the medical group now offers acupuncture!

i'll admit that from the reading i've previously done i currently tend to dismiss acupuncture as complete crap. as silly as the idea sounds to me, the evidence is what is important-- though in this case, the fact is, i find the idea utterly retarded.

so what's going on? am i wrong? or, is the doc:

1. looking to make more money from all the psudeo-hippy-type-new-age folk in this town by offering something that the doc knows does not work, or
2. an actual believer in acupuncture?

and, if either of the above are the case, am i just being an ******* for thinking that perhaps my fiancee should find another doc? i'm just not that content with a doc that is illustrating either a willingness to lie, or a willingness to believe in crap.

i also noticed that wiki's entry for acupuncture didn't seem to have a "criticisms" section. rather than continuing to search elsewhere, i figured i'd post here. i have to do the dishes guys. it stinks in here. i mean, i've opened the windows, and that's not solving the case. it's just rank. help me guys, please.

i'll admit again that i'm quite biased against acupuncture. i expect it to be complete ********. but, i'll admit that i've been wrong before, and it's possible i am this time-- i just doubt it.

i'll also admit that i have great respect for doctors. in this case, the fact that a real doctor is advocating acupuncture has motivated me to question my own conclusions.

but it stinks in here. bad.

thanks all,
anthony.

 

[cbish]

so what's going on? am i wrong? or, is the doc:

1. looking to make more money from all the psudeo-hippy-type-new-age folk in this town by offering something that the doc knows does not work

I'd say this is most likely. Congress started this ball rolling in the early 1990's when they allowed all kinds of pseudo science to be billed in the medical industry. http://www.quackwatch.com/ has some good articles. I'm afraid it's all money oriented.

 

[T.A.M.]

There is a small body of literature that supports that to a degree it works, but most studies are not rigorous enough to confirm it is anything beyond placebo effect. It is hard to administer a "placebo" to a control group when you are stabbing them with needles...lol

TAM

 

[Soapy Sam]

If someone sticks an "accupuncture needle" in your backside and makes you yell, is that accupuncture?

Physiotherapists use accupuncture needles inserted in muscle trigger points to get spasmed muscles to relax. This is likely to be described as accupuncture, though it bears the same relation to Chinese accupuncture that juggling chainsaws does to felling lumber. Same tools, different operation. Of course, both may be bunk.

 

[gerdbonk]

There is a small body of literature that supports that to a degree it works, but most studies are not rigorous enough to confirm it is anything beyond placebo effect. It is hard to administer a "placebo" to a control group when you are stabbing them with needles...lol

TAM

What we need is a competing needle therapy based on an invented mythology. Instead of "meridians" and "qi" we can have energy "turnstiles" and "tokens". "Metropuncture" schools could be opened, appropriate believers trained and they can start sticking people in the ear for ailments that acupuncturists treat by poking toes.

The metropuncturists would be blind to the fact that they are the placebo therapy. Patients would be told the treatment incorporates the latest research in pokology.

When studies show that the competing therapies are equally effective (i.e. acupuncture = placebo) we can expose the ruse, say "gotcha!" and smugly close the book on acupuncture.

Or would credulous metropuncture advocates rise up to fight the vast anti-metropuncture conspiracy?

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

There is a small body of literature that supports that to a degree it works, but most studies are not rigorous enough to confirm it is anything beyond placebo effect. It is hard to administer a "placebo" to a control group when you are stabbing them with needles...lol

TAM

I've done an extensive literature search on acupuncture and come to this same conclusion. The studies that show benefit are mostly flawed. A few that are better show only a placebo effect.

There is a lot of science originating out of China that supposedly shows you can undergo surgical procedures with just acupuncture. But on closer exam, it turns out in most cases the patients actually also had other medications.

 

[JJM]

There is a lot of science originating out of China that supposedly shows you can undergo surgical procedures with just acupuncture. But on closer exam, it turns out in most cases the patients actually also had other medications.

Yes. And, somewhere here, I have an analysis (by others) of Isadore Rosenfeld's report in Parade magazine many years ago (recently re-released) that suggests he observed a sham operation. It is clear from a photograph that he published that the operation did not match his description of it.

Also, Patrick Wall, MD, wrote in his book Pain (Columbia U. Press, 2000) about observing an operation in which the acupuncture failed near the end. It was not a pretty sight.

 

[Dabljuh]

Acupuncture is an interesting topic. The germans did a study on it a few years ago to test the pain suppression capabilities of acupuncture on types such as chemo therapy patients. They formed three groups.
#1 Would get acupuncture, paying attention to all that meridian nonsense, by a qualified acupuncturist
#2 Would get acupuncture, the acupuncturist however would more or less randomly poke them without paying attention to "meridians"
#3 Would just get a massage

The result was, that group #1 and #2 had identical and good outcomes on pain relief. I.e. The whole meridian theory is proven bull. #3 however was at a significant disadvantage in terms of pain relief, but this may be either due to the incredible efficacy of massages (mmmh) compared to acupuncture, or due to disappointment by the participants of the "acupuncture" study only to get a massage (bias)

There have also been studies using mock needles (that collapse into the shaft of the needle) but the only reliably-looking result I could find on short notice was one that said that the actual needles worked better than the "placebo needles". Acupuncture generally seems to work better than a inert placebo in pill form for pain control.

There are physiological hints that acupuncture may work. By causing actual pain in the body, one can stimulate it to produce endorphines, which can provide health relief. Basically, consider this:

You got pain in your neck. I kick you in the balls 10-15 times. Now let me tell you, you won't worry about your neck no more. Acupuncture is simply poking someone with needles until he stops complaining about his back pain.

Ultimately if you're into getting sticked with needles, there's nothing wrong with that. But for pain control I personally prefer different approaches (mostly those that try to resolve the cause and not suppress the symptoms)

 

[hoemaco]

I don't feel to have enough info to decide on acupuncture, (though I'm sceptic about it) but I had an interesting experience that provoked some thoughts.

I'm currently in Singapore. The Science Center has a temporary exhibition
about ancient China. It's pretty nice actually, with craftsman making stone seals, porcelain painting, calligraphy etc, and demos of ancient technology.
Now they have a section on chinese medicine. I didn't yet have time to read all through it, though I doubt I'll understand much on the herbs section. One interesting thing here was the installation of a millivolt meter and an acupuncture chart of the palm. It stated that if you grab one electrode with one hand, and poke your other palm with the other (pin-like) electrode, then you can measure different voltage at the given ac. points. The difference is at least 2-3 times. I didn't really know too much on acupuncture before, apart from hearing the mythical stuff of meridians (now it seems it's all they say), but this exhib I found an interesting attempt on rationalizing things. (It actually worked, i mean beyond usual error percentage - and it was installed by people I know who are otherwise rational engineers - though I didn't ask if they believe in it). It'd be nice, of course if they provided statistics, but that exhib is not about that. Maybe there could be an exhibition made about chinese medicine and there the pros and cons could be presented.

It may be that acupuncture is true or not true, but the idea that comes to my mind is that only because the practitioners of some method claim it uses mystic powers, it does not mean it can't have an explanation based on current or near-future science. It's simply because some methods were discovered way before science could explain them, so people had to give mystic explanations. I feel that the sceptic movement should pay attention to this trap (independently of acupuncture).

To word it in another way, what do we call 'paranormal', eg. in the challenge?

What if someone wins the challenge because noone at jref can provide scientific explanation, and then someone comes and gives rational explanation?

PS Someone can point me to materials in jref that discuss this? I still find it hard to read through thousands of pages...

 

[Acupuncture]

Ok I don't know where the idea came from that meridians are some mystical, magical thing.

The basic idea of acupuncture is the body has energy, physics tells us that. The meridians are meant to be an explanation of how the energy flows. The millivolt meter can show that there is an energetic current that is stronger in some places and less strong in others, as the previous poster pointed out. My guess would be at the tips of the fingers and toes would be the strongest reading.

Think about a river, if you stick a log in it, it is going to change the flow of the water. In a similiar way if you needle into an an energetic flow it can change the direction of that flow, which when done properly can have healing properties.

In a similar test you can use an incence stick and wave it over each finger and toe on both sides of the body. You ask the patient to tell you when they feel the heat. If on one side, say the right index finger they feel the heat after 22 waves, and on the other side they feel it after 5, you can see that the energy in their body is deficient on one side and excessive on the other. This was originated in Japan in the 1940's. By needling specific points (has to be the right ones) you can equalize the sides. This will get rid of one sided symptoms in patients.

For an example there is a patient who fell on their right shoulder 5 years ago, she has had weakness in that shoulder, and over time began to feel weakness in her neck. Then she started having redness in her right eye, and cluster headaches in the right side of her face. When you do this treatment those symptoms clear up.

That is just one of many specific kinds of treatments that can be done, but it is a good example to give to skeptics.

Acupuncture is real, it really works. I know I'll get backlash, I came on here to discuss this with skeptics, but go ahead and shoot. I feel confident I can defend the art.

 

[Miss Anthrope]

I know there was one study, which I cannot locate presently, on the effectiveness of turning a breech presentation during pregnancy using acupuncture.

I tried this during my last pregnancy because it was offered free and I was handed the study. Admittedly, the study left much to be desired, but it was enough to make me say "heck, they're giving it to me for free, I'll do it." The baby did turn. However, I also did some pelvic positioning exercises I had done to help turn my baby during the first pregnancy. Who knows? It's possible the baby turned himself without any of this helping.

And as for poster Acupuncture above: anecdotes, even mine, are not evidence.

 

[JJM]

{snip} Acupuncture is real, it really works. I know I'll get backlash, I came on here to discuss this with skeptics, but go ahead and shoot. I feel confident I can defend the art.

Yes acupunture is real, real nonsense.

Okay, cite an article in a high-quality, medical journal that shows a definitive study supporting acupuncture. We know you have fanzines that promote it, and some of your magazines are indexed in PubMed. That won't cut it, I want a large-scale, double-blind, randomly assigned study published with scientific (not proponent) peer review. I think Skeptigirl has already indicated that you can't provide that, and I concur.

Note, acu may be an effective placebo in some cases. That does not validate the totality of it. Every claim you make must be supported, as I described.

Good luck.

 

[Acupuncture]

Acupuncture is traditional eastern medicine and has been understudied from a western medicine standpoint. There have been many clinical studies done by TCM practioners, but those wouldn't satisfy what you're looking for. I agree you won't find the definitive study you require, that doesn't proove it doesn't work. Lack of funding for the studies, and lack of interest in the medical community, it might proove that.

At my school there are many doctors studying acupuncture, so in regard to the original post I don't think it says anything bad about the doctor, they just know it's affective. Can they explain in western terms why? Doubtful.

The doctor in my class has been getting acupuncture her whole life and through med school. She obviously experienced benefit enough, to put her practice on hold to learn how to do it herself, for her patients.

I have hundreds of anecdontes, see it work in amazing ways daily, but I guess you all don't care. I know without a doubt it works, it's a different language based from a different time.

I don't see how it makes you more of a critical thinker to just dismiss anything that isn't published fact, I see a lot of narrow mindedness on these forums, and even anger from people discussing acupuncture. If it is serving patients in any way, I really don't see why you need to be upset about it.

It's way more than placebo, and has nothing to do with endorphins. But whatever it's not my job to defend a 5000 year old art, it's my goal to offer it to those who want to try it. You skeptics will never be my clients, but there is enough demand that it doesn't bother me too much.

Just disturbs me to see such hostility towards it, on a board that is all about being critical thinkers. I don't ssee how reading a couple articles and dismissing acupuncture makes you more of a critical thinker at all.

 

[T'ai Chi]

Think about a river, if you stick a log in it, it is going to change the flow of the water. In a similiar way if you needle into an an energetic flow it can change the direction of that flow, which when done properly can have healing properties.

Hi Acupuncture, I liked your post.

My father had a treatment, after regular treatments didn't do his knee any good, and after he checked the idea with his regular doctor. After the acupuncture treatment he is pain free. Could there have been other factors, etc etc.? Sure, but that could have been said if the regular treatments were effective. In fact, that can be said about any study, in any field, really.

But what matters is that his pain ended up going away. Disappearing. I'm sure glad he was open-minded enough to try it from a responsible practitioner, because he was quite resistant at first.

 

[Acupuncture]

Hi Acupuncture, I liked your post.

My father had a treatment, after regular treatments didn't do his knee any good, and after he checked the idea with his regular doctor. After the acupuncture treatment he is pain free. Could there have been other factors, etc etc.? Sure, but that could have been said if the regular treatments were effective. In fact, that can be said about any study, in any field, really.

But what matters is that his pain ended up going away. Disappearing. I'm sure glad he was open-minded enough to try it from a responsible practitioner, because he was quite resistant at first.

I had horrible problems with my left knee. It was giving out and I was toppling over. I'm a young guy, 23 when this was going on. Happened 5 times in one year. I went to a surgeon and he showed me the x-ray, my knee was pushed to the left too far, more common in women than men. He wanted to cut the tendons and push it back into place. I was willing to do anything to stop from falling over, as it was causing me intense fear.

I agreed to the surgery, but decided to give acupuncture a try first because it had helped me with food allergies in amazing ways. The practioner needled my elbow and said she had had success with knee problems by needling the elbow. I was skeptical, for sure.

When I woke up the next day, my knee felt pain free. It has been 3 years and I have not fallen over again. I went back to the doctor and my knee was in place. He had no idea why or what could have caused this.

 

[T'ai Chi]

Good Acupuncture, glad to hear your knee is in good shape!

 

[Acupuncture]

Good Acupuncture, glad to hear your knee is in good shape!

Also I've had hundreds of food/envionmental/chemical allergies disappear from treatment.

There comes a point where the response to treatment outweighs any need for me to have it explained scientifically.

Western medicine came about in the 1700's as a response to workers being too sick to come to work in the factory. The language used to describe the body becomes very factory oriented, body is machine. Something that needs tune ups, and to be fixed.

Eastern medicine comes from viewing the natural world, and seeing people as part of nature. Views the body as a garden that needs tending.

It's different language, and naturally hard to talk about one in the others language, thus there are skeptics.

For me what I care about is are the patients getting better, and I see daily they are.

 

[JJM]

{snip} I agree you won't find the definitive study you require, that doesn't proove it doesn't work.

So what proves it works?

Lack of funding for the studies, and lack of interest in the medical community, it might proove that.

Funding is available for any kind of medical research. This has always been the case; but you usually have to show your project is plausible. Today, the (USA) National Center for Complementary and Alternative Medicine especially does not have such restrictions. Write a research proposal that only passes those idiots- you can get money.

I have hundreds of anecdontes {snip}

Anecdotes are not data.

I don't see how it makes you more of a critical thinker to just dismiss anything that isn't published fact ...

Yes, you don't understand. It takes critical thinking, not magical thinking.

It's way more than placebo, I feel confident I can defend the art.

...

But whatever it's not my job to defend a 5000 year old art, {snip} [bold added]

WOW, just- WOW! Argument at its best.

 

[Acupuncture]

Pat yourself on the back JJM, keep fighting the good fight.

 

[JJM]

It's way more than placebo, I feel confident I can defend the art.

...

But whatever it's not my job to defend a 5000 year old art, {snip} [bold added]

WOW, just- WOW! Argument at its best.

Could you be more ignorant?