ACLU Sells Out

The problem with the stigma of being accused of something is that there is nothing anyone can do about it.

Yeah I'm tired of the way some people act as if being accused of certain crimes can't be life ruining, but at the same time... what can be done? That's a mentality, not a rule or law that can be overturned.

Exactly look at trump, he brags about sexually assaulting people and they ruined his life by electing him president.

And what was the point releasing the pensilvania report with a thousand "victims" of sexual abuse by catholic priests? There were only 3 of the victims who could have these supposed crimes prosecuted so why make a big deal over the 997 others? That is ruining lives and reputations for no reason.
 
If I get busted for driving around North Dakota with an ounce of weed, my job shouldn't be able to fire me?

Students represent the school they attend, on or off campus, just like I represent my job even if I'm not there. Why shouldn't they be able to decide?

This is exactly the issue under discussion here: the difference between crimes that come under governmental criminal justice systems and thus come under the Constitutional and other protections and guidelines thus mandated, versus the regulations imposed by employers, educators, etc., that can (and do) operate under other regulations. I could be fired from my job for a number of possible infractions of my employers rules without committing any crime. Including some that occur off work.

The issue in this OP is somewhat more complex in that the universities are required by Title IX to establish rules for how to handle issues that are not crimes per se but relate to "No person in the United States shall, on the basis of sex, be excluded from participation in, be denied the benefits of, or be subjected to discrimination under any education program or activity receiving Federal financial assistance." Thus the University has to meet these Federal requirements or risk losing Federal grants.

Believe me, universities do not particularly want to be involved in this fashion, but I personally do believe that they, and businesses and other organizations, should be responsible for protecting their employees and others they supervise (e.g. students) from discrimination, etc. in their working/learning environment. And this is not just a no-skin-off-my back theory for me: my job falls squarely under Title IX requirements as a faculty member and I am subject to exactly the same rules, possibility of accusations, hearing processes, and possible loss of my position/appointment as the students.

The real issue then is how to create and apply university-based rules as fairly as possible for both the accuser and to the accused, particularly given that these rules, and the associated punishments, do not fall under governmental criminal justice systems and therefore do not have the same mandated associated protections. Some courts, I believe appropriately, have determined that the punishment of being kicked out of school is substantial enough to require higher protection levels for the accused than some universities have provided. But to my knowledge no court has ruled that university regulations on sexual harassment for eg. must be identical to the regulations and processes in the criminal justice system, in part because they are not dealing with governmental crimes.

From anecdotal information I tend to believe that protections for the accused should be somewhat stronger, but I do not know how it works overall and also I recognize that for many decades and centuries it was the (female) accuser who suffered all the disadvantages to the point that most guilty individuals went unpunished and sexual predators flourished.

It is a complex issue, one that cannot be decided on through fake outrage or bombast. I found the overall ACLU position reasonable and largely focused on issues other than protections for the accuser versus the accused. I have mixed feelings of where I stand on the latter, and frankly I will need to do more research and think more about this. But you know, sometimes there are situations that lead to compromises that are not perfectly fair to either side... It sucks, but it might be the best humans can do.
 
IMO it is still double jeopardy.

If you are cleared of criminal wrongdoing by the justice system, you should not be tried by a 3rd party operating with it's own set of rules.

Happens all the time. By civil actions. By employers. By clubs and other private organizations. Perhaps worse still in terms of its impact, but by relatives and friends. Often without a trial! One can be judged not guilty of a crime in court yet have your life ruined by social pressures. And sometimes quite justifiably. "Ha, the court rules there was insufficient evidence that I molested your daughter. So we're good, right?" Well, don't count on it!
 
It is inexplicable that people think it is OK to "compromise" basic principles of due process
 
Happens all the time. By civil actions. By employers. By clubs and other private organizations. Perhaps worse still in terms of its impact, but by relatives and friends. Often without a trial! One can be judged not guilty of a crime in court yet have your life ruined by social pressures. And sometimes quite justifiably. "Ha, the court rules there was insufficient evidence that I molested your daughter. So we're good, right?" Well, don't count on it!

Universities aren’t private organizations
 
Not really. The relationship between a school and a student isn't equivalent to the relationship between an employer and an employee.

That doesn't mean that schools have no business adjudicating any of these sexual assault/harassment complaints, because those issues aren't equivalent to smoking pot either. But the parallel you're trying to draw is a bad one.

Plus, of course, it's all unnecessary. If you object categorically to schools handling these issues, then these new rules about how exactly schools should do that are irrelevant, and this thread isn't the place to address that objection.

Often, they do represent their school, especially if they compete athletically or even academically with other colleges.
 
Often, they do represent their school, especially if they compete athletically or even academically with other colleges.

That's a specific subcategory of students, not students in general.
 
One thing I should mention: to my knowledge accusations of sexual harassment, the investigation, and the findings are kept fairly confidential at my university. I do not believe that findings of sexual harassment can even be included in letters of reference unless they meet a very strong test of relevance visa vie the next position being applied for.

Therefore although the accused being kicked out as a student is certainly a serious and substantial punishment (this is one of the ultimate penalties but is fairly rare compared to most of the lesser ones), I don't believe that the reason is made public and therefore is not necessarily associated with a life-long cloud unless the "confirmed" harasser chooses to share that information widely. This may not be true elsewhere - I do not know.
 
Universities aren’t private organizations

Many are! Are we restricting our conversation to public universities? In fact my list did not include universities of any kind - I only pointed out that society as a whole, at many, many levels, punishes people severely who nonetheless are found not guilty by the criminal justice system. And it is not always unfair - often society has a right to judge what is acceptable whether a crime or not.

If you do want to bring in public universities, it is somewhat complicated. They are not arms of the state or city criminal justice system. In fact they are not arms of the state/city in most ways: these governments partially fund them (typically poorly) and impose some rules, but most rules, regulations, and the actual running of the universities are through boards of regents and through university-adminstrators/faculty committees. The rules that employees and students operate under are an additional layer very distinct from those of the government. In this OP we are in fact discussing many issues that are not even crimes, but are violations of university rules, so double jeopardy doesn't apply. One obvious if off topic example, a student unable to maintain a certain GPA will be kicked out of a public university even though that is not a crime.
 
If I get busted for driving around North Dakota with an ounce of weed, my job shouldn't be able to fire me?
Nope.


If it creates negative publicity that makes it harder for your employers to operate and make money, then they probably should have the right to fire you. I don’t think that’s what the ACLU is interested in here though.

A better analogy may be a company that lax safety polices or has safety policies that it doesn’t really enforce so that unsafe practices become commonplace. If someone gets hurt because management allows the work environment to become unsafe should they be liable? In extreme cases maybe they could even face criminal charges, but certainly civil charges should apply.

The school has a similar responsibility to create an environment that is safe for it’s students, and when it’s a specific group that (women in this case) that inordinately suffer the consequences it becomes something the ACLU is likely to take an interest in.
 
Believe me, universities do not particularly want to be involved in this fashion, but I personally do believe that they, and businesses and other organizations, should be responsible for protecting their employees and others they supervise (e.g. students) from discrimination, etc. in their working/learning environment. And this is not just a no-skin-off-my back theory for me: my job falls squarely under Title IX requirements as a faculty member and I am subject to exactly the same rules, possibility of accusations, hearing processes, and possible loss of my position/appointment as the students.

I don't think it's the norm for faculty to be subject to the exact same process as students. For comparison, from Cornell University:
Complaints against students
Complaints against faculty and staff
They are very similar, but not identical. In particular, after the investigation of allegations is complete, if the accusation is against a student then it goes to a 3-member Hearing Panel to make a decision. If the accusation is against a faculty or staff member, the report goes to a Dean or Vice President (whoever is in charge of your unit) to make a decision.
 
Why shouldn't they be able to decide?

They receive taxpayer funding. Technically, *you* should be able to decide. Which, through the miracle of representative democracy, is exactly what you're doing.

You're paying good money so that people in this country can get a college education. Why *shouldn't* you have a say in how the people who are taking your money decide to deny education?
 
Time and again, this circuit has reiterated that students have a substantial interest at stake when it comes to school disciplinary hearings for sexual misconduct. Doe v. Miami Univ., 882 F.3d 579, 600 (6th Cir. 2018); Univ. of Cincinnati, 872 F.3d at 400; Doe v. Cummins, 662 F. App'x 437, 446 (6th Cir. 2016). Being labeled a sex offender by a university has both an immediate and lasting impact on a student's life. Miami Univ., 882 F.3d at 600. The student may be forced to withdraw from his classes and move out of his university housing. Id. His personal relationships might suffer. See id. And he could face difficulty obtaining educational and employment opportunities down the road, especially if he is expelled. Id.

Doe v. Baum, No. 17-2213 (6th Cir. Sept. 7, 2018).
 
Many are! Are we restricting our conversation to public universities?

Yes.

If you do want to bring in public universities, it is somewhat complicated.

Not really. It’s actually simple. Want to take public money? Then you can’t act like a fascist. Do you have a problem with universities being unable to discriminate against minorities if they take public funding?
 
Many are! Are we restricting our conversation to public universities?
Yes.

Not exactly. Title IX is restricted to schools which accept federal funding. That includes private universities, but the public has an interest in them through that funding. But such universities are free to ignore title IX rules, if they give up that federal funding.
 

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