Abortion, the big question....

[Lucifuge Rofocale]

Thinking a little more about it, the women should have this too. So conception would be only possible when both parents want it.

 

[compjan]

This is an issue where science can end the controversy forever.

<..>

The social thing is that this procedure should be practiced at birth or in the early chilhood as an standard procedure, like vaccination is today (hehe bigfig ).

The only thing that can stop this after the correct vaccine or procedure has been developed is... you guessed it: Religion.

Well ... I don't think we can nail religion as the only block for your idea.

It would have to be forced (unless somehow everyone does it voluntarily). In the U.S. at least, and I suspect many other democratic societies there would be great resistance to early forced contraception, particuarly if there is any fear of health problems. A belief in personal liberty or resistance to the state would be at least as big barriers as religion.

Maybe over time this early contraception would become acceptable like vaccination is today, but I think it unlikely due to the primal instincts involved.

Good thinking though!

Compjan

 

[Lucifuge Rofocale]

Well ... I don't think we can nail religion as the only block for your idea.

It would have to be forced (unless somehow everyone does it voluntarily). In the U.S. at least, and I suspect many other democratic societies there would be great resistance to early forced contraception, particuarly if there is any fear of health problems. A belief in personal liberty or resistance to the state would be at least as big barriers as religion.

Maybe over time this early contraception would become acceptable like vaccination is today, but I think it unlikely due to the primal instincts involved.

Good thinking though!

Compjan

The same primal instincts applied to the vaccination example. Many jew people find desirable a procedure that is a lot more intrusive that the one I'm advocating and which don't give any benefit to the victim Lots of cultures with similar procedures comes to mind.

I don't think it should be mandatory, of course. I repeat, it's like vaccination. That would convince the freedom advocates. Giving that, the only real problem would be religion.

 

[compjan]

<..>

I don't think it should be mandatory, of course. I repeat, it's like vaccination. That would convince the freedom advocates. Giving that, the only real problem would be religion.

I'm showing my ignorance here, but aren't vaccinations mandatory for schoolkids in the U.S? I know that I had to have several shots before attending my university.

Another issue I just remembered was the racial controversy in some U.S. cities when Norplant was required for poor women seeking welfare. Since most of the women were black, there were accusations of racial oppression, even attempted genocide.

OTOH if we offered Americans tax deductions and free giant screen TVS they'd probably flock to the contraception centers in droves. I'm amazed that some people here will bitterly defend their right to own guns and worship however they want, then give away their privacy to grocery stores to save a few bucks, or give out their address, telephone number, and SSN whenever someone behind a cash register asks. I discovered recently that Circuit City outright refused to sell me a television unless I provided my name and address. Maybe if they set up a program mandating contraception implants before you can get your TV, we'll have this problem licked in no time!

CompJan

 

[hammegk]

Lucifuge

Easy as 1-2-3; (reversible) vasectomy or tubal ligation at birth, but reversible only on completion -- for a couple -- of some real study on Parenting For Best Results.

Just my 2cts

 

[Bjorn]

Re: Lucifuge

Easy as 1-2-3; (reversible) vasectomy or tubal ligation at birth, but reversible only on completion -- for a couple -- of some real study on Parenting For Best Results.

Just my 2cts

Aren't we getting quite close to Brave New World here?

Can we imagine the kind of people in charge of deciding who's qualified to have a baby or not?

Are you married?

How much money are you making?

What is the IQ of the parents?

Which church do you belong to?

Are both parents the same race?

Did you ever do drugs (inhaling or not)?

No - as much as I see people having kids when they shouldn't have, I really don't see the committee solution as a better alternative.

 

[SortingItAllOut]

Re: Re: Lucifuge

Aren't we getting quite close to Brave New World here?

Hi Bjorn!

That is *exactly* what I was thinking when I read through the last ten posts or so.

Can we imagine the kind of people in charge of deciding who's qualified to have a baby or not?

Are you married?

How much money are you making?

What is the IQ of the parents?

Which church do you belong to?

Are both parents the same race?

Did you ever do drugs (inhaling or not)?

No - as much as I see people having kids when they shouldn't have, I really don't see the committee solution as a better alternative.

I suspect that there isn't ever going to be a solution to this problem. We want folks to be responsible, to do the right thing, to think, to educate themselves, to consider the consequences of their actions... but how do you *mandate* those things? Of course you really can't. Try as we might to move forward in the USA, it is difficult to make people do something or abstain from something unless you make up a bunch of laws in order to compel them. Look no further to the number of speeding tickets written to see defiance of the law by otherwise "good citizens." Outlawing abortion won't make it go away. People will weigh the penalties and risks and still decide one way or the other.

I suppose that honest communication in the home and in the school system would help. I think children get a lot of mixed messages. Sometimes the media is responsible, but it is hardly consistent. Sometimes parents take the time to talk to their children, but some don't. Some parents are excellent role models and their children look to them for guidance. Some parents are lousy - and the lousy ones aren't all, as the stereotypes portray, shacking up in a trailer park. There are plenty of terrible parents living in half-million dollar homes, substituting money and things for a relationship. It's quite sad.

Have a nice week!

 

[hammegk]

Bjorn

Hmm, you think Big Brother isn't already here? Get a Drivers License, passport, enroll kids in school, etc.

On having a baby, maybe just a simple contract:

Man & woman sign, "we agree to have a child and support it".

The law for vasectomy/tubal lit at birth might be doable. Want to start the petition?

 

[mindless]

On having a baby, maybe just a simple contract:

so what happens if someone beats the system e.g. has the operation reversed in a back street surgery and forces himself on someone?

or what if a woman gets pregnant wiothout a certificate, would the state forcibly abort the pregnancy? This is starting to sound like one of those futuristic sci-fi horror stories.

 

[Lucifuge Rofocale]

I don't know what all this fuzz is about? If we
1.- Make the operation voluntary
2.- Give some benefits to the people that do it (some tax exemptions would be good because people that have only the child they want tend to use less social services)

then the practice would become very common.

Also, I didn't propose an exam before allowing parenting. They simply have to go to a consultory and have their impediment removed for a month. Any time they want. The times they want to do it. No question asked.

Can you imagine how many problems we would solve if each children is a wanted children?

 

[wolfgirl]

I don't know what all this fuzz is about? If we
1.- Make the operation voluntary
2.- Give some benefits to the people that do it (some tax exemptions would be good because people that have only the child they want tend to use less social services)

then the practice would become very common.

Also, I didn't propose an exam before allowing parenting. They simply have to go to a consultory and have their impediment removed for a month. Any time they want. The times they want to do it. No question asked.

Can you imagine how many problems we would solve if each children is a wanted children?

Understanding that this is only theoretical, I like it. The idea that you have to make a conscious choice to have a child is a good one. I, too, have concerns about forced sterilization, requirements for parenthood (though there sure are a lot of parents who shouldn't be), etc. But your method doesn't stop anyone from having children if they want them, but would stop an awful lot of people from having them by accident. The only problem is the "slippery slope" sort, as in what if, once you had the procedure, vaccine, whatever, THEN they decided not to let you reverse it for whatever reason. I think that idea of giving anyone else, especially the state, the power to control your reproduction would scare a lot of people off, including perhaps even me, and I don't want any more kids. But in theory, it's a good idea.

Even now, I'm all for tax benefits for people who choose NOT to have kids, instead of all the benefits for those who do.

 

[Bjorn]

I don't know what all this fuzz is about? If we
1.- Make the operation voluntary

Well, isn't it? Today? I did it already ....

Can you imagine how many problems we would solve if each children is a wanted children?

Yes. On the other hand, I must admit that the second of my children wasn't really planned to happen at the time. We still had her (it was 'of course we will').

I guess not all unplanned children are unwanted.

But to prevent abortions by voluntary surgery? Man, if you can't make it with condoms and pills I don't think the teenagers will line up for 'just a little cut, don't worry ...'

 

[Yahzi]

Against abortions? Don't have one.

Abortions are a form of birth control, always have been, and always will be.

There is no scientific defintion of when live begins - only social ones. As long as people value babies, infanticide will be wrong. But who values fetuses? And why should we?

I can make a good argument for why we should value babies, and hence why we should continue to prevent infanticide. But given that 3 out of 4 pregnancies result in natural first-month abortions, I just can't get worked up about a few more here or there.

Sure, at some stage - 6 months, 3 months, whatever - it looks like a baby. So we get attached. We can make rules then.

But it's just a social judgement call. The fundamental principle is that a woman controls her own body at all times - if she is bearing a 7 month old fetus, does this eliminate her right to commit suicide?

And if she doesn't have the right to commit suicide, then fundamentally she doesn't control her own life.

Me, I vote for control of my own life, please. If that means accepting suicide and abortion, well... nothing good is cheap.

 

[SortingItAllOut]

Against abortions? Don't have one.

Abortions are a form of birth control, always have been, and always will be.

There is no scientific defintion of when live begins - only social ones. As long as people value babies, infanticide will be wrong. But who values fetuses? And why should we?

I can make a good argument for why we should value babies, and hence why we should continue to prevent infanticide. But given that 3 out of 4 pregnancies result in natural first-month abortions, I just can't get worked up about a few more here or there.

Sure, at some stage - 6 months, 3 months, whatever - it looks like a baby. So we get attached. We can make rules then.

But it's just a social judgement call. The fundamental principle is that a woman controls her own body at all times - if she is bearing a 7 month old fetus, does this eliminate her right to commit suicide?

And if she doesn't have the right to commit suicide, then fundamentally she doesn't control her own life.

Me, I vote for control of my own life, please. If that means accepting suicide and abortion, well... nothing good is cheap.

Hi Yahzi!

Of course, there is the viability issue with a 7 month old fetus. It is quite possible that the fetus could be saved at 7 months, given our current technology, a fetus that is 23-24 weeks old can survive. This is a medical fact. At that point, I wonder if the mother's "right to suicide" should outweigh the the potentially viable fetus' right to be given a fighting chance.

I'd hope that this is but a hypothetical situation, though I wouldn't be surprised if situations like this have come up.

Suicide is such a foreign, strange concept to me that I'm not sure how to consider it. It goes against our natural desire to survive. I realize that doesn't mean people don't attempt it - I just cannot imagine a situation so grave that I'd consider suicide. But that is me - I'm sure others can come up with plenty of reason why their life isn't worth living.

Anyhow, like I posted earlier, I'm pretty sure that mandates won't completely eliminate the issue of abortion and with people having many different opinions and beliefs concerning life, abortion, etc., we'll never find a solution that is 100% satisfactory to all people.

Have a nice evening!
Sort

 

[Ove]

The problem with contraception, voluntarily vasectomi etc. is that it is only choosen by sensible people. I've had a vasectomi (two kids are enough thank you very much) but i know people who have 4 or 5 kids who never should have had any.

There was a quite stirring documentary on Danish television about "unfit" parents, basically the kind that has their children removed immidiatedly after birth (drug addicts, alcoholics etc.). We followed one couple specifically. They had already had two children removed and now they were in family therapy with number 3. It wasn't going well and the therapists was trying to explain to the mother (a drug addict) why they were going to take her child away. Then she replied triumphantly: "Ha, then im only going to have one more".!!!!!!!!!

I know any thought's about forced sterilisation, sound terribly like some of Adolf's old idea's on the other hand some people just ain't fit to be parents so what to do?

I'm afraid i don't have a "patent solution" but then again, who has?

 

[Yahzi]

I just cannot imagine a situation so grave that I'd consider suicide.

You are a remarkably lucky person.

we'll never find a solution that is 100% satisfactory to all people.

Probably because life itself isn't 100% satisfactory.

Striving for perfection in our attention to potential person's rights while billions rot in poverty, ignorance, and oppression seems just a bit near-sighted.

 

[SortingItAllOut]

You are a remarkably lucky person.

Hi Yahzi!

I wouldn't consider luck to have anything to do with it. I've had some difficult times in my life, some times when I was confused, depressed, etc.. I'd guess that we all have times of despair at one point or another in our lives. Suicide just isn't something that I've ever considered nor something I can imagine considering. Maybe it was my upbringing or my attitude toward life, I don't know... I just know that it isn't anything I'd consider.

Have a nice evening!
Sort

 

[Lucifuge Rofocale]

Understanding that this is only theoretical, I like it. The idea that you have to make a conscious choice to have a child is a good one. I, too, have concerns about forced sterilization, requirements for parenthood (though there sure are a lot of parents who shouldn't be), etc. But your method doesn't stop anyone from having children if they want them, but would stop an awful lot of people from having them by accident. The only problem is the "slippery slope" sort, as in what if, once you had the procedure, vaccine, whatever, THEN they decided not to let you reverse it for whatever reason. I think that idea of giving anyone else, especially the state, the power to control your reproduction would scare a lot of people off, including perhaps even me, and I don't want any more kids. But in theory, it's a good idea.

There could be a way to make it independent of the government's wishes. The one day shots could be sold freely.

Even now, I'm all for tax benefits for people who choose NOT to have kids, instead of all the benefits for those who do.

Agreed

 

[Lucifuge Rofocale]

I don't know what all this fuzz is about? If we
1.- Make the operation voluntary

Well, isn't it? Today? I did it already ....

Not in your early chilhood. I meant voluntary for your parents.

Can you imagine how many problems we would solve if each children is a wanted children?

Yes. On the other hand, I must admit that the second of my children wasn't really planned to happen at the time. We still had her (it was 'of course we will').
I guess not all unplanned children are unwanted.

Not all. That's true. But what's the proportion against unwanted unplanned children?

But to prevent abortions by voluntary surgery? Man, if you can't make it with condoms and pills I don't think the teenagers will line up for 'just a little cut, don't worry ...'

That's because it's a temporary way to avoid pregnacy, not a temporary way to be able to procreate.

 

[wolfgirl]

There could be a way to make it independent of the government's wishes. The one day shots could be sold freely.

Maybe it's just my paranoid nature, but I would never trust that the government wouldn't somehow get control of it. For example, they decide that they don't want people having any more kids, or that they want to determine who does, or whatever. Now they just restrict and regulate the production of the antidote or the availability of the procedure. They suddenly make it illegal to make, buy or sell it (much like marijuana, but that's another whole rant). That's what would worry me.

Again, in theory, since that's all we're talking about here, I'm for it.