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Abortion, the big question....

Well Lucifuge, I have to hand it to you, I think your idea has a lot of potential. And as long as the sterilization is reversible (at any time and with no strings attached, i.e "the parenting test") then I wouldnt mind at all. Of course as mentioned above countless times, if the situation changed suddenly and the "test" or some such became mandatory things would become very bad.

Of course unwanted pregnancies could and would still occur from time to time. And of course some may want a abortion which brings us right back to where we started. We still need to know when a fetus is no longer simply a mass of dividing cells and is a baby.

Of course one idea taken from science fiction may solve the problem....the "iron womb". A device that perfectly simulates the natural womb of the mother and within which the child may be placed and gestated to maturity. What do you think?

-Hunter :cool:
 
Sounds ok on a voluntary, no parenting test basis, but I'd like to see it become mandatory for mother and father (if he can be identified) on birth of first illegitimate child. Tubal lig for mom before she leaves delivery room, and a parenting test to get it removed. Ditto for dad, get snipped, or 10-20 hard time.

Just my 2cts.
 
Hunter said:
Of course one idea taken from science fiction may solve the problem....the "iron womb". A device that perfectly simulates the natural womb of the mother and within which the child may be placed and gestated to maturity. What do you think?
But who cares for all these babies? There are, supposedly, millions of abortions a year. Who will care for these millions of unwanted babies? And what of over-population, which is already a problem?:confused:
 
wolfgirl said:
But who cares for all these babies? There are, supposedly, millions of abortions a year. Who will care for these millions of unwanted babies? And what of over-population, which is already a problem?:confused:
Just read 'Brave New World', it is all solved there.

But we wouldn't like it that way, would we? :rolleyes:
 
wolfgirl said:
But who cares for all these babies? There are, supposedly, millions of abortions a year. Who will care for these millions of unwanted babies.....

Have you seen The Matrix?

I believe we have some AIers here who may be doing the code as we speak.
 
Bjorn said:
Just read 'Brave New World', it is all solved there.

But we wouldn't like it that way, would we? :rolleyes:

But everyone was happy in Brave New World so what's the problem?


that soma is soooo goooodddd.......................................
 
The woman's right to choose I can agree with, but in the following case I had doubts that this female aquaintance was being responsible.

She is now in her thirties, she has had 4 abortions (starting at 17 - I supported her on this one at the time, the last one when 24). Now she wants to have a baby. She has trouble conceiving now, and when she does conceive she miscarries in each case. I am not sure why she can't have a baby now (whether it is ralated to damage done during the abortions she had) but I can't help thinking, thank-goodness she can't have a baby.

I do not think abortion should be used as birth control, and this female aquaintance seemed to do so.
 
Fade
Do I think less of women who get abortions as birth control? Yes.
So women who use a form of birth control that prevents a fertilzed egg from sticking to the uterus wall are morally inferior to women who use a form of birth control that prevents the egg from being fertilized?

You think less of women who use the pill?


Hunter
I simply am not sure of what the right answer is (assuming there is one).
The morally correct position on abortion is quite simple: If you are against abortions, don't have one.

On the other hand, if you feel some need to control other people's actions even when it cannot possibly have any effect on you at all, then perhaps you should consider your control issues.
 
Hunter said:
Hi everybody, it's me again.

I've been pondering the topic of abortion for some time now, but I'm stuck. I simply am not sure of what the right answer is (assuming there is one).

Hence, I come to you fellow forum dwellers seeking your opinions on the topic of abortion and more importantly, why you hold those opinions.

My thanks to you all in advance.

-Hunter:cool:
P.S Forgive my temporary absence...My Dad is in the Hospital right now. I hope to get back to posting (and especially reading) these forums at top speed soon.

I am anti-abortion and pro-choice!

I hope your dad gets better soon!!:)
 
So women who use a form of birth control that prevents a fertilzed egg from sticking to the uterus wall are morally inferior to women who use a form of birth control that prevents the egg from being fertilized?

You think less of women who use the pill?

(wow, old thread!)

Yazhi, I think abortion is a nasty, terrible thing. I really wish that there were a system in place that allowed for abortions to NEVER happen. It's an evil that I am comfortable having exist, because it serves a vital function.
 
I used to feel that way.

Then I learned that 3 out of 4 pregnancies end in a natural abortion, and I decided that it really wasn't a big deal.

I don't see anything wrong with Ru-486. If a woman wants to take a pill to not get pregnant, I don't care if she does it 1 month before or 1 month after we have sex.

I think what priests do to little children - preaching hellfire and eternal torment and subservience to invisible threats - is a nasty, terrible thing. Compared to that, I've found abortion just doesn't really bother me very much.
 
I long ago learned that arguing any aspect of abortion is ultimately fruitless. Suffice it to say I don't agree with you.
 
My views on this subject tend to be rather black and white...

I do not regard a foetus as a Human being until it is capable of surviving outside the womb.

Until it reaches that point, then as far as I am concerned it is no more deserving of a right to life than a fingernail.

Now as far as I can tell, the borderline for this criteria is about 24 weeks. So I support a woman's right to have an abortion on demand, for any reason she cares to think of, up to that point.

After that point I would support abortion only if the health of both mother and child were in clear and certain danger - and I'd try to remove the child and let it live in that case.

As for creating a society in which all children could have a good life - I think it is incredibly naive to think this would solve anything. Even assuming it were possible, does anybody really think that not one woman would ask for an abortion just because of this? To give but a single example, what if a model got pregnant and didn't want to lose work through looking fat?

The fact is that when you give a choice to a population of hundreds of millions, some are always going to choose the option that you don't like no matter how rosy you make the alternative. So the only way to end abortions would be to remove that choice altogether, which is going to keep the whole can of worms open. And you would still have illegal and cross-border abortions to deal with in any case.
 
Thumbs up for abortion.
Why?
There are already a lot of people on this world and the amount of them is not decreasing,there is only so much space.
Ecological pressure of this overload could lead to problems much greater.
 
Well the matter of abortion is purely that of a value judgement i.e. a matter of when we ascribe personhood to a given organism. Personhood is when the state recognizes basic rights in an organism and protects such rights.

Now nobody is seriously arguing that the fetus is technically alive. A body organ, insects and cows are all alive. However that doesn't automatically give any of those things personhood.

Likewise having feelings is not sufficient to give a fetus rights. Cows for example have feelings but they don't have rights.

Also the matter of potential personhood is also insufficient. Mainly because its so arbitrary. Technically any cell(through cloning) or any sperm/egg is likewise a potential person, that doesn't give such things rights either though.

So what determines personhood? More or less approximation and conveniance. Like I said, it's a value judgement, a matter of purely how we feel about the subject(s) in question.

Deciding personhood is a tricky thing. To which deciding that personhood is attained at birth is the most efficient way of doing so. If after birth, then we have to decide when and there is possibility of abuse. If before birth, we are faced with the same problem. Those two things are hard to detect. But birth/nonbirth is not. There is also historical/legal precedence for this viewpoint, as so far in the US the only ways to become a citizen involve you either being born on US soil, from US citizens or imigrating. Attributing personhood at birth though would call for a revision to these standards.

If we decide personhood begins at birth, we are in a sense giving a fetus citizenship, in which case an immigrant need just come here to the US for example, and get pregnant and the fetus is already a US citizen. This may lead to rather messy affairs best avoided.

I personally don't really care about a fetus as much as I do the freedom of the woman who wants an abortion or the quality of life of such women. So I don't really care if it is terminated.

And this is merited by the fact that the fetus is similiar to an organ, has very little to no awareness(equivalent to a mouse or jellyfish I imagine), and that drawing the line for fundamental rights at birth is a very efficient way of establishing rights.

Having a baby one not of age can limit a female's oppurtunities. Messing up her future and creating social problems. It can also lead to increased sexism, as such women are usually reliant on men for economic support. As well as potential loss to civil liberties.

To elaborate on the civil liberties thing, when abortions were at one time illegal, a woman could actually be investigated by law enforcement for a miscarriage, as such a thing was a potential case of murder/manslaughter i.e. an abortion. That to me is a serious violation of privacy for a fetus.

But this brings up a good point. If we give basic personhood to a fetus, when do we do it? At conception? If so, is a miscarriage then a potential case of manslaughter or child neglect? Should the authorities take measures to protect a fetus, by detaining a mother who engages in high risk activities(drinking alchohol for example), just like they do every other citizen? Any other "child" or baby?

Also anti-abortion would lead to back alley abortions, which have a possibility of harming the mother.

Issues like, what if a woman dies in pregnancy, become more complicated. Because then you are no longer murdering a fetus to save a mother, but a person, with rights. You cannot just through rights away for conveniance. Nor can you just commit murder. Could a hospital that then, kills a fetus to save a women, be held accountable for murder?

Also having abortion would make sex a riskier business. I'm sure this is what many conservatives want as few of them believe in sex before marriage. However I, and I imagine the majority, do believe in it. Abortion then is the ultimate contraceptive, as it allows people to remove the fetus if prevention fails, or avoid preventive measures entirely.

Hence the value judgement comes down to this, freedom for men and women, social prosperity, legal efficiency, and safer sex vs the value of a fetus, no more intelligent then a gerbil.

The issue is not very hard for me, nor should it be very hard for anyone else.
 
Abortion the big non-issue.
I wouldn't have one myself, but then I am male.
It is not my place to tell other people what to do,
some people could really be unhappy carrying a baby to term, I can't say whats right for another person.

As I stated in Renata's thread: Why do people who care let children starve, go hungry and live on the streets?

Why is it so hard to terminate the rights of parents who can't care for thier children.

Abortion is a smoke screen for people who don't know how to be good, so they pretend to be good, then they condem everyone around them.
 
I do not regard a foetus as a Human being until it is capable of surviving outside the womb.
In a different but equally pointless thread, I proved the point that it doesn't matter whether or not a fetus is a person. You still have the right to say, "get out now!"

Why is it so hard to terminate the rights of parents who can't care for thier children.
Because we don't have any better alternatives. Even abusive parents can be better parents than the State. State Instituitions simply don't do well at replacing families, much like laws don't do well at replacing morality.
 
Hmmm....well it seems to me that it all boils down to the issue of personhood now doesnt it? Some folks consider the foetus a child at conception, others consider personhood as being gained around the same time brainwaves develop, and still others feel that "True Personhood" is not present untill the actual moment of birth. How can one truly determine when personhood begins?

I hate to say it, but despite all of this discussion the issue still seems a bit murky. Not to mention there is an enourmous amount of emotion that is backing up people individual stances on this issue. Emotion can cloud the mind of the sanest man alive. I myself still am unable to decide when I can consider( beyond a shadow of a doubt that is) when to look upon a foetus as more than a mere mass of rapidly dividing cells but as a living(if not entirely complete) human.

Of course we could go on bickering forever, there ought to be some kind of definitive answer that all can agree upon...then again perhaps I am placing too much faith in humanity. I dont see such an answer coming to light anytime soon. We need to try and regard this in as logical and scientific light as we can. Religion especially could prove a difficult barrier to this as certain absolute doctrines dont have room for much questioning.

-Hunter
 

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