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A Universal Flood

Why do we still have the Ebola virus? Did Noah bring that too? Or any infectious bacteria for that matter...
 
Hello again Christian.

By a fortunate coincidence, we were just chatting to a YEC about this. After nine pages, here's my list of some of the questions he hadn't answered. I've edited them, as some were specific to particular mechanisms he put forward for the Flood.

The original thread is here --- if Nick returns, you may care to sit in on the argument.

---

D : LIFE ON THE ARK

(1) Many fish species are quite delicate when it comes to water Ph, salinity, temperature and oxygen levels. How they survived the deluge? Did Noah have tanks in the Ark? (He would need tanks for fresh water and saltwater fish, since the deluge waters must have completely messed up the subaquatic environment.)

(2) How did Noah manage to maintain the environment on the arc for those creatures that live in low-pressure sub-zero environments and those that live in high-pressure high-temperature environments?

(3) Every modern disease of animals must have come on the Ark, including of course diseases that affect humans. The Ark must therefore have been loaded with bubonic plague, cholera, polio, typhus, typhoid, sleeping sickness, leprosy, syphillis, smallpox, measles, malaria... How did Noah and his family survive?

(4) How many different species did Noah take onto the Ark?


E : GEOLOGY AND THE FLOOD

(1) We have not recognized a worldwide flood deposit (in contrast to the recognized Cretaceous-Tertiary boundary). Where in the geologic column should we expect to find it (i.e., how old would it be)? If it would be 6,000 to 10,000 years old, there certainly should be evidence; heck, we have evidence of all sorts of regional depositional events that occurred during this time frame.

(2) How do YECs explain that layers supposedly deposited during the deluge can be tilted, faulted, folded, buried underneath kilometres of rock (including massive volcanics) or uplifited miles high?

(3) Since YECs claim that sedimentary rocks were formed by sediments deposited during the deluge, diagenesis and lithification must be quite fast, after a couple of thousand tears. Why don´t we see sediments say, deposited by the time of the pharaos, that became rock? Why does loose mud deposited at the bottom of a water body not become rock almost instantly?

(4) Are we to believe that there were igneous intrusions during the Deluge, forming nice tablular dikes in the sediment that was being swirled around, or that stratal deformations characteristic of consolidated rocks formed while the sediments were still being deposited?

(5) How do YECs explain metasedimentary rocks?

(6) Where are the all the tuff, ignimbrite, lava and lahar layers associated with the eruptions that caused or helped to cause the deluge [according to the hypothetical "steam from eruptions" mechanism for the Flood]? (Note that all of them must have the same age!)

...

(9) If fossilised creatures were all killed in a global flood, why are 90% of all fossils marine life? Wouldn't land animals be worse affected?

(10) Why are human remains never found in the same strata as dinosaur fossils?

(11) Can you explain the unique fossils of Antarctica in terms of YEC geology?

...


F : AFTER THE FLOOD --- DISPERSION AND BIOGEOGRAPHY

(1) How did the plants survive the Flood / their seeds survive to germinate?

(2) After disembarking from the Ark how did the plant-eaters survive until the plants had grown out again, and how did the predators survive until the prey had multiplied?

(3) "Conservation biologists now calculate as a rough rule of thumb that unless a wild population contains around five hundred individuals, it is liable to go extinct, sooner or later. Yet even five hundred is only enough to allow the population to tick over... five hundred, then, is a very conservative figure." How does this square with the story of the Ark?

(4) If only two of each unclean land mammal was taken into the Ark, but there were eight humans, of which at least six formed breeding pairs, then we ought to find higher genetic diversity in humans than in unclean beasts, and we should also expect the most genetically diverse mammals to be whales, which would not have undergone the same (impossible) population bottleneck. But this is not what we find when we study genetics. Why do you think this is?

(5) The Great Pyramid shows no evidence at all of ever having been submerged. Therefore, it must be of post-Flood construction. But it is so old that it must have been constructed within a few hundred years, at most, of the Flood. How was that pyramid built by so few people?

(6) [AiG] explain the distribution of the world's fauna, and that of Australia in particular, by ascribing them to human pastoralists. Australia is home to dozens of unique species of venomous snake. Can you explain how and why anyone would herd these creatures to Australia from Turkey (without, you notice, losing any on the way --- Australian snakes are unique to Australia) and why they didn't, instead, take any domesticated meat animals such as sheep, goats, or cattle? Which humans would be dumb enough to carry polar bears to the Arctic? Tigers to Sumatra? Komodo dragons to Komodo? Crocodiles to Florida? Army ants to Brazil?

---

I hope this helps. I haven't bothered to sort this list into a "top ten", because there may well be other objections I don't know about. And it omits, of course, the number 1 argument --- we know what actually happened. We know the real history of life on Earth, and it isn't what you find in Genesis. In the same way, if someone claims that during the seventeenth century Europe was ruled by giant purple lizards, we can disprove this without finding any faults or fallacies in that proposition itself --- it is sufficient to look at the real history of seventeenth century Europe and its dynasties.
 
Re: Re: A Universal Flood

Upchurch said:
...
Aside from Marquis de Carabas's point about the Biblical dimensions not allowing room for two of every animal


And it’s more of a tight squeeze than that:

Gen 7:2-3

Of every clean beast thou shalt take to thee by sevens, the male and his female: and of beasts that are not clean by two, the male and his female. Of fowls also of the air by sevens, the male and the female; to keep seed alive upon the face of all the earth.

He had to pack in seven of the “clean” animals and seven of every bird species (that may also include bats).
 
Dr Adequate said:
Hello again Christian.

By a fortunate coincidence, we were just chatting to a YEC about this. After nine pages, here's my list of some of the questions he hadn't answered. I've edited them, as some were specific to particular mechanisms he put forward for the Flood.

...SNIP


Dr. A - as always you are a font of information. Thanks for this response, I'll try to keep some in my memory banks. I especially enjoyed the Australian venomous snake herding idea.... just when you think your job is tough!
 
seayakin
Maybe it wasn't an ark at all but he was a Time Lord with a Tardis, maybe he was Rassillon himself.
No, Dr Who (the first Doctor BTW) visited the ark. It was a giant spacecraft with animal samples (glass test tubes containing the necessary items to ‘grow’ a species). He and his (I believe 2 at the time) assistants visited it at least twice. The ship was large enough and the trip long enough that there were generations of caretakers. There were the human caretakers and a slave race they had created – conflict ensued.

Ossai
 
Re: Re: Re: A Universal Flood

Scot C. Trypal said:
And it’s more of a tight squeeze than that:

Gen 7:2-3



He had to pack in seven of the “clean” animals and seven of every bird species (that may also include bats).

But that isn't the case since it then goes on to say:

Gen 7:9 "Two of each came to Noah to the ark, male and female, as God had command Noah"

It's a bit tricky to know exactly what happened during the claimed flood since the only source of information we have is the Bible and it seems rather confused about the matter! :)
 
The problems with Australian animals don't stop with the snakes. Koalas, for example, can only subsist on eucalyptus leaves. Not only would Noah have to have had a supply of fresh eucalyptus leaves on board the ark to keep them alive, there is also the problem of the koalas getting to the middle east in the first place (to board the ark) and returning to Australia afterward.

I mean, cute and cuddly koalas may be, but long-distance runners they are not.
 
Re: Re: A Universal Flood

Marquis de Carabas said:
The top reason is lack of available space in the ark as defined Biblically. Again, I don't see what good nine more reasons would be.

Another related reason, and my favorite, is that Noah and his family would each have to host thousands of diseases in order to preserve them thru the flood. Most such germ diseases only can survive in one species, so every animal on the boat would have to be crammed with them.

Given some kill, and quickly, no animal should have survived (to say nothing about toxic overload of the body from thousands of simultaneous infections and diseases.)

The lack of any such discussions makes a joke of the whole "history". Yes, "god" could have had them host benignly, and unaware to them, but if you concede that, the entire concept of needing an ark to begin with evaporates, if god will intercede to that amount just to retrofit a child's tale to jive with real world modern science.
 
Oh, you silly skepticals. It amazes me the mental gymnastics you guys go through to avoid beliefing in God. Obviously, all animals started out in the Garden of Eden, so koalas and other native Austrian species didn't have to "get" to the Middle East. They were already there, and disbursed after the Grate Flood. And you know that Incontinental Drift your materialistic scientist gods are always on about? I bet the Flood happened when everything was still one big island, so it was easy for all them animals to find their way to their new homes.
 
Ossai said:
seayakin
No, Dr Who (the first Doctor BTW) visited the ark. It was a giant spacecraft with animal samples (glass test tubes containing the necessary items to ‘grow’ a species). He and his (I believe 2 at the time) assistants visited it at least twice. The ship was large enough and the trip long enough that there were generations of caretakers. There were the human caretakers and a slave race they had created – conflict ensued.

Ossai

Speaking of the Doctor, Billie Piper may have finally knocked Nicola Bryant off as the hottest sidekick of all time. She's less pretty, but those big lips... Plus, the hooter situation is still undefined at this moment, too.
 
How can a hooter situation be undefined?

So what was Noah and his family eating while they were on the ark? And did they bring samples of every PLANT too? Or did the flood only drown animals and humans?
 
bluess said:

So what was Noah and his family eating while they were on the ark?
They fasted to get closer to God. For water, they just held out their cups.

And did they bring samples of every PLANT too? Or did the flood only drown animals and humans?
Oh, you can't drown, plants, silly skeptical!
 
The many houseplants I have killed would beg to differ. Probably by Ouija board - oops, that's a tool of the devil, sorry, probably by communicating to John Edwards.

Hey - how long did it take for the deserts to dry out? And did he bring every insect on board too? I'm sure the fleas and lice would have been happy, what with all those big beasties to infest.
 
bluess said:
Hey - how long did it take for the deserts to dry out?
Not long at all. Sand used to dry quicker than it does today. Has to do with shifting magnetic fields.

And did he bring every insect on board too? I'm sure the fleas and lice would have been happy, what with all those big beasties to infest.
He didn't have to bring insects. All insects float.
 
Marquis de Carabas said:
..Snip

He didn't have to bring insects. All insects float.

Great, now I'm never going to have a bath again. Showers only.
 
seayakin said:
Maybe it wasn't an ark at all but he was a Time Lord with a Tardis, maybe he was Rassillon himself. :o

Oh come on! Don't be rediculous.

Dr. Who is a fanciful story made up by people looking to get some money out of it.

Ummmm.

Nevermind.
 
Christian said:
Can someone give me the top ten reasons why a universal flood could not happen?
I suspect it was probably a regional flood.

Can someone gime me the top ten reasons why the ark part could not happen (all the animals in the ark)?
I see no reason why this should be taken in the literal sense. Do you? And, while it is possible that somebody built the ark and made an attempt to save all the known species -- or, those which were deemed most essential -- I doubt very much that it entailed every single species there is. That sounds just a bit too absurd don't you think?
 
Marquis de Carabas said:
He didn't have to bring insects. All insects float.

Not so fast:

Gen 7:13-14
In the selfsame day entered Noah, and Shem, and Ham, and Japheth, the sons of Noah, and Noah's wife, and the three wives of his sons with them, into the ark; They, and every beast after his kind, and all the cattle after their kind, and every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind, and every fowl after his kind, every bird of every sort.

Gen 7:21-22
And all flesh died that moved upon the earth, both of fowl, and of cattle, and of beast, and of every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth, and every man: All in whose nostrils was the breath of life, of all that was in the dry land, died.

Noah took every insect, and held the floaters under water.

To pack all those beasts into the ark in “the selfsame day” would seem to lead to a ridiculous rate of boarding, wouldn’t it?

Originally posted by Iacchus
I doubt very much that it entailed every single species there is. That sounds just a bit too absurd don't you think?

I'd agree but that is what the Bible says, and many want to take the Bible as literal truth.
 
Ow. I just banged my head something fierce as I fainted with shock. Iacchus, warn somebody next time you're going to post something rational.
 

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