A question about the Devil

[Atlas]

I happened on a Catholic Forum today. It seemed so sane compared to sites like RaptureReady. Still, it had many of the same trappings.

A fellow brought up a question. He said he'd been given to understand that while God knows your every thought and desire, the Devil knows only your words and actions.

Another person chimed in that most Catholic writers agree that the Devil cannot read your thoughts. However, after centuries of observations this shrewd and evil tempter can make pretty good guesses about what's going on in your mind.

I grew up Catholic and I don't remember this difference between the gods of light and darkness. We could definitely sin in thought as well as word and deed. I assumed the Devil was not just whispering in my ear but playing with my mind.

For those raised Catholic, do you remember ever being instructed in this regard? For you others, what could the Devil do to you?

 

[L7Cz]

Assuming the existence of both entities for the sake of the discussion, it has always been my understanding that God is unique. That is, there is no "evil" equivalent to God. Lucifer was the highest (best, brightest, strongest?) of the angels and their many subdivisions, and committing the sin of pride, attempted to equate himself with God. God, unwilling to share his pinnacle with anyone else, cast Lucifer into the depths, whereupon (just like in the soap operas) Lucifer swore undying enmity and vengenace. Apparently the only place to wage this struggle for supremacy (or equality?) was in the "souls" (another postulate accepted for the sake of the discussion) of mankind. If mankind followed God's dictates their entire lives, they would be "saved" and God would win. If Lucifer/Satan could entice them to stray, Lucifer would win. However, God, apparently unsatisfied with omnipotence and omniscience, later introduced the caveat that no matter how bad the person's prior life, accepting Jesus as the person's Savior and asking God's forgiveness would wipe out the previous sins and allow God to chalk up that soul as His.

Of course, this is the best of all possible worlds for us sinners. We can debauch, rape, pillage, steal, prevaricate, fornicate, abuse and misuse to our heart's content, and then at the last moment, recant all our previous actions and thoughts, securing for ourselves both maximum pleasure on Earth (guaranteed) and the nebulous concept of life everlasting (unproven, but apparently oh, so attractive). All we have to really do is be totally honest that we are sorry for what we so enjoyed while we were doing it.

As far as I remember, the Devil can only influence. Whether he does this by placing temptation in our path, whispering in our ear, or directing our thoughts is not a subject I recall being discussed. If God is unique, then the ability to know our every thought is probably one of the unique qualities He posesses.

 

[ceo_esq]

A fellow brought up a question. He said he'd been given to understand that while God knows your every thought and desire, the Devil knows only your words and actions.

Another person chimed in that most Catholic writers agree that the Devil cannot read your thoughts. However, after centuries of observations this shrewd and evil tempter can make pretty good guesses about what's going on in your mind.

I grew up Catholic and I don't remember this difference between the gods of light and darkness. We could definitely sin in thought as well as word and deed. I assumed the Devil was not just whispering in my ear but playing with my mind.

For those raised Catholic, do you remember ever being instructed in this regard? For you others, what could the Devil do to you?

None of the Catholic friends I was able to poll on this question specifically recalled being taught that the Devil could not read minds, but as this does not appear to constitute an article of the faith, I'm not too surprised.

It's true, however, that Aquinas included in the Summa Theologiae a complex logical discussion of "whether angels know secret thoughts", concluding that the angels (with whom the Devil shares an angelic nature) cannot know human thoughts except to the extent that such thoughts are materially expressed (including, inter alia, through physiological changes in the thinker which are not obvious to human observers).

 

[Iamme]

I wonder what came first; the word god, or the word good. The word devil , or the word evil?

There are people who believe that there is a devil, but don't believe there is a god. That's interesting. What would make such people believe in a devil (evil) without it's counterpart (god/good)? It would be more rational to believe there is a god, without the devil, actually, than the other way around, one would think. You could rationalize that creation and order came from good, and that all is good, without believing in any of the destructive forces. You could blame entropy on the overall plan of god. But it be harder to believe that a devil/evil saw fit to include goodness in his plans. And where would the devil have come from? Do these people think the devil is god the creator?

 

[drkitten]

There are people who believe that there is a devil, but don't believe there is a god. That's interesting. What would make such people believe in a devil (evil) without it's counterpart (god/good)?

The idea that there is a singular representation of good in the form of God, and of evil in the form of the Devil is rather unusual in terms of comparative religions. Most non-Abrahamic religions involve multiple gods, where each god is at times both good and evil, depending upon the circumstance.

Is Poseidon, for example, good or evil?

When you've got powerful but relatively unpredictable beings that need to be propitiated, it's very easy to start mentally focusing on the bad things that they could do for you rather than the good things that you sort of take for granted. (Poseidon provides fish, but people notice fishing boats that sink instead of the ones that make it safe into harbor).

Stepping from here into the notion of an evil supernatural being seems pretty psychologically obvious to me.

 

[turtle]

I happened on a Catholic Forum today. It seemed so sane compared to sites like RaptureReady. Still, it had many of the same trappings.

A fellow brought up a question. He said he'd been given to understand that while God knows your every thought and desire, the Devil knows only your words and actions.

Another person chimed in that most Catholic writers agree that the Devil cannot read your thoughts. However, after centuries of observations this shrewd and evil tempter can make pretty good guesses about what's going on in your mind.

I grew up Catholic and I don't remember this difference between the gods of light and darkness. We could definitely sin in thought as well as word and deed. I assumed the Devil was not just whispering in my ear but playing with my mind.

For those raised Catholic, do you remember ever being instructed in this regard? For you others, what could the Devil do to you?

I went to Catholic school for 8 years. I don't remember that distinction. I remember a whole lot of warnings about not being tempted by Satan, that kind of thing, but nothing about how the Devil can't read our thoughts.

 

[Atlas]

Re: Re: A question about the Devil

I went to Catholic school for 8 years. I don't remember that distinction. I remember a whole lot of warnings about not being tempted by Satan, that kind of thing, but nothing about how the Devil can't read our thoughts.

Thanks turtle,

In public school we had catechism class only 1 hour a week. Mostly it was taught by a priest - I'm sure this was never explicitly explained.

Ceo-esq - thanks for your thoughts and especially the link. I like your point about it not being an article of faith.

Thanks too to the rest of you. The devil is a far more interesting imaginary character to me than the imaginary being who created him.

The idea that God and the Devil are one is much easier to imagine than the Devil being the only god - why would a culture dream that up. As usual, new Dr kiiten, offers insightful perspective. All the gods mixed up with good and evil just like us.

Back to our devil though... I sure would like to here from the non catholic christian perspective on this. I believe that the popular tradition is that the devil knows what you're thinking and swoops in to take advantage when you at your weakest. Can't point to any reason why I believe that - I just do.

In the war between God and the devil it sure gives god the advantage. He can read minds - he can read the devil's mind. The devil knows that. How does he think he can win a battle with god. Tricks?

It also puts more responsibility for evil on god. He knows the devil's thinking and does nothing to stop him except murder his own son to give us hope. Weird.

 

[turtle]

Re: Re: Re: A question about the Devil

Thanks turtle,

The idea that God and the Devil are one is much easier to imagine than the Devil being the only god - why would a culture dream that up. As usual, new Dr kiiten, offers insightful perspective. All the gods mixed up with good and evil just like us.

I find that fascinating too -- and makes a certain kind of sense.

I believe that the popular tradition is that the devil knows what you're thinking and swoops in to take advantage when you at your weakest. Can't point to any reason why I believe that - I just do.

That seems very familiar -- something the nuns told us way back when I'm sure. I have a vague memory of this idea; always be on guard, for the Devil is just waiting for you to slip up in your innate, degenerate human weakness . . .

 

[1inChrist]

Satan has you all brainwashed. I pray that your eternal souls are not consumed by the flames of Hell.

 

[Atlas]

Satan has you all brainwashed. I pray that your eternal souls are not consumed by the flames of Hell.

Actually I was hoping to get your perspective on this 1inC. Thanks for stopping by.

Do I understand from this comment that you believe that the devil can read thoughts of humans and even more, can plant ideas?

As you can tell from my comments above, I am not a Christian but I was one once. I don't mind if you pray for me. But what I'd most like is a comment from you on the issue of whether the devil does have the power to read human thought.

 

[1inChrist]

Actually I was hoping to get your perspective on this 1inC. Thanks for stopping by.

Do I understand from this comment that you believe that the devil can read thoughts of humans and even more, can plant ideas?

As you can tell from my comments above, I am not a Christian but I was one once. I don't mind if you pray for me. But what I'd most like is a comment from you on the issue of whether the devil does have the power to read human thought.

The Bible doesn't say but I don't believe he can because he's not God.

 

[Atlas]

The Bible doesn't say but I don't believe he can because he's not God.

Thanks. Actually your answer surprised me. I expected from your comments on the devil that you grant him enormous supernatural power. And reading human thought seemed like a natural.

The devil also operates in our time as well, right? He is not the master of time and space like God.

Is he an everywhere kind of being though? He seems to be affecting more than 1 person at a time. Or is Satan confined to Hell and all the decieving being done is handled by demons.

The reason I'm asking is that I assumed I understood who the devil was but this mind reading idea kinda threw me and now it has raised other questions.

Does he have any control over time or does he operate in real time and flit from human to human. Are we only influenced by him for seconds a day. Does the Bible tell us?

 

[SixSixSix]

With all these limitations you're placing on the poor devil, the Problem of Evil becomes even harder to answer.

 

[Atlas]

With all these limitations you're placing on the poor devil, the Problem of Evil becomes even harder to answer.

With a name like yours I can see where you'd be a little sensitive.

It does seem like the devil can offer no threat to God if he cannot read minds and operate outside time. God could sneak up on Satan anytime.

God could plant a thought into Satan any time too.... "Be nice!" That just doesn't seem to be part of God's plan. Evil is a big part of God's plan. Evil exists at His pleasure. All responsibility for evil does seem to fall squarely on God's shoulders and Satan, who has been getting a bad rap all these years, should be known as God's good angel of evil.

No doubt he's buddy-buddy with God making wagers and yukking it up with God - like in Job. But that would take so much drama out of the imaginary cast of characters.

 

[phildonnia]

I can't remember the Enemy ever being a major topic in my own catholic catechism. My experience may not be typical, but mainly it was about memorizing: the commandments, the beatitudes, the books of the NT, the holy days, the saints, etc.

So I may be going way off the official dogma here, but I always imagined that Ol' Horny would at least have very detailed knowledge of everyone's individual personality flaws.

 

[turtle]

I can't remember the Enemy ever being a major topic in my own catholic catechism. My experience may not be typical, but mainly it was about memorizing: the commandments, the beatitudes, the books of the NT, the holy days, the saints, etc.

So I may be going way off the official dogma here, but I always imagined that Ol' Horny would at least have very detailed knowledge of everyone's individual personality flaws.

This might be going off topic a bit, but I wonder (I'm sure there must be) if differences in Catholic school teachings, methods and basic philosophies through the years changed, from the heavy handed (literally) to a more reasonable and calm approach.


I went to Catholic school in the late '50s, and 60s. Most of the nuns were right from Ireland; very strict, very mean, very heavy on the evil evil evil nature of us poor pathetic humans, and only God, if we try hard enough, will save us. And the devil was always around; just waiting for that moment when we slip up. We did all the other stuff too, the commandments, etc. but a lot of it seemed to be gory and fear based.

We did things like move over in our seats to make room for our Guardian Angels to give them a rest, lol. Our soul was illustrated to us by a wobbly circle on the chalkboard, filled in with smudgy chalk to represent our sins, and with each prayer or good deed, a little bit of our innate evilness was erased away. (Picture: nun erasing chalky smudge on board.)

By the time I left, and my younger siblings attended, the nuns were no longer wearing those awful hot, heavy black habits, they were in suits, and they were very nice. A lot of the fear based "you're going to burn in hell if you don't shape up missy!" was gone.

Anyway, from my experience in CS, a lot of it was to beware of the Devil .

(Oh, forgot, yes, the Saints! Very big on the saints. I always kind of liked that part. Maybe it was the colorful pictures .)

 

[Atlas]

I can't remember the Enemy ever being a major topic in my own catholic catechism.

Now that you bring it up, the one piece of knowledge I got from the priest that I still remember is that if you feel tormented by the devil that can be a good sign.

The devil doesn't waste his time on souls he's already snared. So the more you suffer the bigger the battle between Jesus and the Devil for your soul.

It almost seems designed to produce a psychosis. Torment, suffering and mental anguish are all hopeful signs that everything is going to work out - as long as I embrace it with the proper attitude - the Devil doesn't have me yet. Yippee!

 

[1inChrist]

The devil also operates in our time as well, right? He is not the master of time and space like God.

Satan is the father of the earth. However, he is not the ultimate master, God is. Satan will be destroyed in the end but for right now, he is the father of earth. This is why being a Christian is so hard, because you must fight Satan every single day of your life.

Is he an everywhere kind of being though? He seems to be affecting more than 1 person at a time. Or is Satan confined to Hell and all the decieving being done is handled by demons.

Satan is not omnipresent. Also remember he does have angels who do is evil work too.

Does he have any control over time or does he operate in real time and flit from human to human. Are we only influenced by him for seconds a day. Does the Bible tell us?

The Holy Word warns of Satan's attacks so we must prepare for them everyday. I pray about 15 times a day. To give thanks and ask for Him to defend me from the forces of evil. Satan is very smart when it comes to human behavior. He's been observing human behavior for over 5,000 years! He knows much more than any psychologist about human behavior. I believe he has the power to set obstacles in your way. I remember when I was a younger man Satan would tempt with sex almost daily for 6 years! But with the power of Christ, I shot down every attempt he threw at me and that taught me that with God on my side, I can defeat Satan.

 

[Skeptical Greg]

Franko, you crack me up...

 

[Atlas]

Satan is not omnipresent. Also remember he does have angels who do is evil work too.

Again, I appreciate you contribution here 1inC. Of all the posters you are the most obsessed with Satan and seem to speak with authority on his ways.

As I considered your agreement with the Catholics on Satan's inability to read our thoughts I was hoping to get you to comment on Possession.

Demons are able on occasion to completely take over an individual's personality. To invade their body. Jesus cast them out. Sometimes they were Legion in a single individual.

Do you think this happens alot? Are demons able to control thoughts only if they invade and possess.

Your own struggle that you mentioned... that had to do with your thoughts but they were being driven by the surges and urges of hormones - or are hormones and demons the same or similar entities. Or did the devil walk women into you sight and let your God given flesh drive you into his snare.

I'm asking the question sincerely. As I mentioned, you and I are not of the same mind on the reality of Satan but you seem like one of a very few that can answer these questions from an attitude of faithfulness in this forum.