A Conversation with Ruby

[Ruby]

Ruby, what was the main reason of your "Conversion"?

I will try to answer that tomorrow, but it's more likely that I won't get to it until sometime this weekend. Tomorrow is a busy day. My oldest son is coming in for a visit.

 

[Humphreys]

I also used to be a believer. I became an Atheist the moment I realized I believed in god because I feared him. More accurately, I feared the idea of god I'd had drilled into my brain at a young age, and feared the punishment I would receive for disbelieving.

It's silly really; if god exists I should be a believer, if god doesn't exist, I should have nothing to fear.

The most powerful question I asked of myself at this time, was "Why?". Why should I believe there is a god?

Originally I believed there is a god for the same reason I once believed there is a Tooth Fairy; I was told by someone I thought knew better than me; someone I trusted. I presumed I didn't need to question their judgement. All these people couldn't be wrong, some of them at least must have had a really good reason to believe god exists.

Once I stopped taking others words as fact no questions asked, I started thinking for myself and realized I didn't have an answer to my original question - "Why?". Furthermore, it seems no one has a good answer to this question.

When I come across a believer these days, I always ask the same question. I'll be a weak-Atheist until the day I get a satisfactory answer.

I'm still searching. I even tried asking god for an answer to this question.

He didn't reply...mustave been busy.

 

[WildCat]

I also used to be a believer. I became an Atheist the moment I realized I believed in god because I feared him. More accurately, I feared the idea of god I'd had drilled into my brain at a young age, and feared the punishment I would receive for disbelieving.

It's silly really; if god exists I should be a believer, if god doesn't exist, I should have nothing to fear.

That was really the meat of it for me. If god exists, he's a petty, cruel, manipulative, masochistic, self-aggrandizing bastard on a scale that makes Idi Amin look like a boy scout.

If he decides you didn't kiss his a$$ sufficiently, he'll have you tortured for all of eternity. He once had a bad day and decided to kill every living thing on the planet except for Noah, his immediate family, and enough animals to keep the species going (really unnecessary if you believe in creationism, since he could have just snapped his fingers and made more animals).

If god were a man on Earth he'd be in a lunatic prison or on the receiving end of Bush's War on Terrorism.

Petrifying fear is no reason to worship anything. And if you need that constant threat hanging over your head in order to be a good person, there's something seriously wrong with you.

 

[Samus]

Xev: Atheism Teaches That...

Ruby: I have not chosen an Atheist stance. I have not properly explored the Atheist belief system.

Maybe I'm the exception to the rule, but I don't see a lack of belief in god as teaching anything, or as a belief system. How is not believing in something a belief?

I just don't believe in god, that's it.

I guess I never really did; when I went to church as a kid, I was just going through the motions. I was never really made to read the Bible, and even though I was confirmed in the Catholic church, I didn't spend any great amount of time learning about god and Jesus and all that jazz. Or maybe I just don't remember it. Either way, although I accept the atheist label, I think there are a lot of misconceptions about what it really means to simply lack a belief in god.

YMMV...

 

[Keziah Mason]

My own story is pretty boring.

I wasn't born into a strong religous family, but they weren't non-believers either. Religion wasn't, and still isn't, discussed much but I do recall that the idea that the Christian god existed was pretty much accepted.

I became an atheist with my first exposures to other mythologies. I was very interested in Greek and Norse mythology when I was young. This grew into interests in other mythologies as well and it didn't take long for me to see the simularities and realize it was all the same. An early interest in science helped the process along, as well.

 

[Marc]

My path of deconversion.

Was raised catholic, but was never very religious. Can remember one time in middle school we were studying Greek/Roman mythology and realized that centuries ago this was religion. People went to temples and prayed to these entities. What then is the difference between a myth and a religion? Came to the conclusions that the difference is if anyone still believes in it.

Didn't think about it again until many years later when I got into skepticism. Started learning about all kinds of nonsence beliefs and the reasoning people use to convince themselves they are true. Went through a list of links at the Skeptic website to learn more on specific subjects. Finally came to the link to Operation Clambake, a site all on the cult of $cientology. Very fascinating, I spent several weeks going through everything on the site. Learned a bit about other cults as well. It was amazing how people could be led to believe the most rediculous nonsence with such poor evidence and reasoning.

Started to think about the more mainstream religions then. Are their reasons and evidence any better? Are thier claims of miracles any better supported than the claims of UFOs and Bigfoot? Taking a good look at it I realized that religious claims and beliefs were no better supported than any other paranormal claims/beliefs. So I became an atheist.

Funny thing is, as a christian I had no interest in religion. As an atheist I am very interested in the subject. I've read 3 books on $cientology, read the bible (can see why reading it has led many people to atheism), read the Book of Mormon, Secret Origins of the Bible, just about done a book on Bible Prophecies, regularly check the news links at Infidels.org, got a book on who wrote the gosples, and other miscelaneous readings.

 

[Skeptical Greg]

I finally figured out that a world in which God apparently intervened randomly, was indistinguishable from a world in which he didn't intervene ( exist ) at all.. Ocam did the rest..

From that point own, I was able to relax and realize that I was accountable in this life for my own actions and not subject to the whims of an ethereal being who slaughtered thousands of innocents along with the ( supposed ) guilty whenever he got pissed off...

 

[Wile E. Coyote]

Maybe I'm the exception to the rule, but I don't see a lack of belief in god as teaching anything, or as a belief system. How is not believing in something a belief?

This was my exact sentiment and you beat me to it.

There is no atheist belief system. My two year old son is an atheist. My cat is an atheist. We are all atheists by default. The fact that some people believe in gods is what mandates that those who do not should carry some sort of label.

 

[Tricky]

This was my exact sentiment and you beat me to it.

There is no atheist belief system. My two year old son is an atheist. My cat is an atheist. We are all atheists by default. The fact that some people believe in gods is what mandates that those who do not should carry some sort of label.

Indeed. If any one religion had actual advantages over another, then it would be pretty much randomly distributed around the world. But instead, we see that most people have the religion of their parents or at least their culture.

I can well see why Christians don't want evolution taught in schools. They don't want any competition of ideas during those young, formative years. It interferes with the indoctrination.

 

[Christian]

Tricky wrote:
I'm not sure Ruby will post here. Christian was uncharacteristically rude, mean and condescending with her. Maybe he didn't mean to be (and maybe he had a bad night with the twins), but I could scarcely blame Ruby for not inviting more attacks. Maybe if Christian promises to behave...

This is not true. I made what I believe to be factual observations. And they not anywhere near the mean, condescending observations she has made about Christians.


And certainly my comments have been a miniscule fraction of what I get in here (which I consider to be fair treatment in the context of this place and of debate)

I am being anything but condecending to her. Why should I or anybody else cut some slack on someone who demonstrates a negative opinion on Christians. In this forum, all views are challenged and should be.

Beside, she agreed to come to this thread.

If I'm wrong, I see no evidence of it yet. I see plenty of evidence to the contrary.

like these:

Originally posted by a_unique_person
I think his type of thinking was one of the reasons Ruby quit the traditional xian churches in her area. Not xian enough maybe.

Originally posted by Eos of the Eons
I find it ludicrous that are affairs are considered, but divorce is not.

Affairs are way worse than leaving a bad marriage. My husband better divorce me before he ever has an affair.

I can't believe their stinking peaves about Ruby's post.
Nutballs, all of them, and I admire you all for leaving this craziness behind when you left christianity behind.

I bet that's mostly what made them all so nuts in the first place. The guy's shame at his fantasies keep him from being sexually functional with a woman. I know lots of guys with warped fantasies, and it doesn't hold them back from sex with their wives.

Gads. Nuts nuts nuts.

Ruby's response to that:

Originally posted by Ruby
Yep!!!

Tricky, how about this for condescension:

Originally posted by Ruby
Well, I figured I may as well go out like a bang. I've got them all praying for me now....it's pretty serious when they all start into praying for you!!!

Ruby wrote:
Well, actually, I thought this thread was going to be about my supposed constant bashing of Christians?

I don't recall saying bashing, but is it about your negative comments on Christians and why you should accept challenges to your opionions.

I have already stated that I am not an Atheist. I am a Secular humanist.....and a Unitarian Universalist. You can see that from my Avatar with the symbols. I have not chosen an Atheist stance. I have not properly explored the Atheist belief system. I still ponder if it's possible for there to be a Creator. As I've said, some days I say "No way", and others, I think, "Yes, way!". I only de-converted six months ago......I'm still working through this....learning, etc.

I'm sorry, I assumed wrong. I thought that by now you already would be (from this next comment)

Originally posted by Ruby on 10-23-2003 10:23 AM
I registered at RR back in May. I used to post there a bit...but then stopped until now. I was a liberal Christian when I posting in May. Now I am an agnostic.....well on my way to being atheist. So, my old posts are quite different from my new posts.

 

[Xev]

????

Hmmmmm.......... ?????

I have no basis with which to understand this. I'm not calling in to question your credibility, just saying I don't understand. Why do you live a more "decent" life? Did being a believer take away your sense of morality or did being a believer pressure you to act in a way that was counter to your own sense of morality? If so how?

My life is not better and I am not a better person since I have become agnostic. I simply do not believe anymore. I do less charitable work because church was organized in such a way that helped me to be charitable. I have considered becoming a Unitarian in part because they offer many of the charitable programs that my church did along with other things I sincerely believe made me a better person (Unitarians I understand welcome atheists and agnostics and are less dogmatic).

I certainly understand anyone who claims that their life is better, but to claim to live a more decent life, I would love to know how and why?

Thank you,

RandFan

I'll do my best. I think I felt that when I did something wrong, it was because I was a human, fallible and sinful because mankind was sinful. If I did something wrong, I had the attitude that, "I will pray, and god will forgive me". When I belonged to a church, our fund raising consisted of getting money so we could go to beach retreats, snow skiing and musicals so we could spread the word of god. We didn't give money to the poor, feed anyone, or anything charitable. Well, personally, I'd rather march for women's rights, volunteer for things that are going to affect this lifetime, not the supposed afterlife. I am less judgemental; I swear, when I found out someone was not saved, I think I thought they must have been a horrible person. But then again, this was between the ages of 12-14. Just because someone isn't saved or doesn't believe in god does not make them a bad person. It took me a long time to realize that.

 

[Xev]

Maybe I'm the exception to the rule, but I don't see a lack of belief in god as teaching anything, or as a belief system. How is not believing in something a belief?

I just don't believe in god, that's it.

Yes, I copied that from atheists.org. Agreed, atheism is a religion like bald is a hair color. If someone asked me what atheists "believe", that is what I would tell them though. That it "teaches, instructs, suggests, demonstrates, explains" etc, all the things I mentioned on that list. I'll watch what I post. And ditto to what you said.

 

[Ruby]

Ruby wrote:
Well, actually, I thought this thread was going to be about my supposed constant bashing of Christians?

I don't recall saying bashing, but is it about your negative comments on Christians and why you should accept challenges to your opionions.

Hi,

Well, to be fair, this is a quote of how this thread came about. Elliot had defended me to you and you posted this back to him "I'm not castigating her. I'm flat out confronting her. She finds it fit to talk down about Christians constantly, I find it fit to question her."

Then I responded to you with------> "Ruby wrote: If you find that I "talk down about Christians constantly" and you want to question me on it, why not start a whole new topic on it?You responded with "Christian wrote: Ok.""

So, I was wrong to use the term "bashing". I do not deny making negative comments about Christians on here. As I've said, some of those comments were made while I was still a Christian...although, admittedly, most were made after I de-converted.

I was not aware that I have "Constantly" talked down about Christians. I will stand corrected if that is the case. Perhaps I have made a reputation on JREF for cutting down Christians without even realizing it.

What I have thought, and naturally, I could be wrong, is that I have only responded in a negative way to those Christians who have upset me or with those who have hurt me, or have hurt others, and/or have been legalistic and harsh. And yet, most of my personal interactions with Christians have been as civil as possible...and in some cases very friendly, but once again, I've had a few, very few, online Christian exchanges where I spoke in sarcasm or anger.

I have already stated that I am not an Atheist. I am a Secular humanist.....and a Unitarian Universalist. You can see that from my Avatar with the symbols. I have not chosen an Atheist stance. I have not properly explored the Atheist belief system. I still ponder if it's possible for there to be a Creator. As I've said, some days I say "No way", and others, I think, "Yes, way!". I only de-converted six months ago......I'm still working through this....learning, etc.[/b]

I'm sorry, I assumed wrong. I thought that by now you already would be (from this next comment)

Nope...never have become one...........but I understand better now why you thought I had.

 

[Ruby]

Maybe I'm the exception to the rule, but I don't see a lack of belief in god as teaching anything, or as a belief system. How is not believing in something a belief?

I just don't believe in god, that's it.

You make a good point. I did not look at it that way. I was thinking about the Atheism vs Theism debates, and how I know little to nothing to debate in the fashion I have read some Atheist debating. But maybe it is no different from arguing from any non-religious stand point.

I am such a novice at not being a Christian, but, I have only been at this non-Christian state for about six months!!

 

[Ruby]

I finally figured out that a world in which God apparently intervened randomly, was indistinguishable from a world in which he didn't intervene ( exist ) at all..

Yes, that was part of my discovery too. Just one of many many things that turned me away from Christianity!

 

[Hagrok]

Well, I think you'll find that most atheists agree that being an atheist simply means "lacking belief in god or gods".

Of course, many theists insist this isn't true (not sure how that works), and the "strong atheist vs weak atheist vs agnostic" arguments rage back and forth even still. I've seen it go on at IIDB for 10 pages.

You are, of course, free to believe what you wish

--Dan

 

[RandFanJr.]

I'll do my best. I think I felt that when I did something wrong, it was because I was a human, fallible and sinful because mankind was sinful. If I did something wrong, I had the attitude that, "I will pray, and god will forgive me". When I belonged to a church, our fund raising consisted of getting money so we could go to beach retreats, snow skiing and musicals so we could spread the word of god. We didn't give money to the poor, feed anyone, or anything charitable. Well, personally, I'd rather march for women's rights, volunteer for things that are going to affect this lifetime, not the supposed afterlife. I am less judgemental; I swear, when I found out someone was not saved, I think I thought they must have been a horrible person. But then again, this was between the ages of 12-14.

Thank you,

I think I understand a bit better.

Just because someone isn't saved or doesn't believe in god does not make them a bad person. It took me a long time to realize that.

And conversely, just because someone does believe in god does not make that person a bad person, right?

 

[Xev]

And conversely, just because someone does believe in god does not make that person a bad person, right?

Of course not. There are "bad" atheists and christians (and all the other religions, as well as "good" atheists, christians, etc. I think that sums it up. No need to make this post any longer.

 

[Christian]

Ruby

Here a sample of your comments:

Originally posted by Ruby on 01-30-2004 in The psychology of Hell

Fear, fear fear. That seems to be the biggest motivaton behind so much in Christianity...although so many Christians can't see it. So many who have doubts, but still cling to Christianity, would never admit that they hold on due to a deep seated fear that "Hell" might still be for real.
_____________________________________________

I have been angered by the hardheartedness and mercilessness of those who, as you said, "take some perverse glee in describing the torments of the damned". Rapture ready forum....and other Christian forums have their fair share of those who get their jollies talking about how torturous they think "hell" is. The more hideous and agonizing they make it sound, the more they seem to get off on it.................even though some will say how desperately they don't want anyone to end up in "hell". Even if they say that, I still get the feeling that on some level they can't wait for people to be sent there.

Originally posted by Ruby on 01-15-2004 in Are Christians Persecuted? A Replication Poll

So, I get pretty ticked off when Christians start running on about being persecuted. However, I know it's just a sort of brainwashed view. I had it once too. I would not...could not face the facts. I had to believe that we had it rough...even though I knew we had it great....if that makes any sense!!!

Originally posted by Ruby on 11-19-2003 in Motivation for morals

When I was a Christian, I was motivated by fear to be moral...this turned into legalism. Most Christians went around feeling superior if they abstained from more "worldly" things than other Christians. For some, it was considered immoral to drink alcohol. For others, to wear make-up was immoral. So many Christians spent far too much time worrying and sweating over little things to even face the fact that they were being immoral in the big things...where it really counted. I found many christians to be harsh and condemning of others...and the biggest backstabbing gossips. The spread of false and malicious stories was rampant. There were abuses of every sort...including sexual.

Christians have not cornered the market on morals!!

Now, as an agnostic, I choose to be moral...without fear or pressure....without legalism...without pretense. I don't expect or wait to be rewarded for doing a good deed...as christians always do.....I just do good deeds, period...expecting nothing.

I feel better about myself due to this.
___________________________________________

Poor Catholics get picked on so bad by a lot of Christian....especially 1st United Pencostal christians. I think they'd just like to burn them all at the stake. It's so horrid how they talk about them

Originally posted by Ruby on Most irritating theological argument ever

The guy's only "good" argument for the legitimacy of the bible was that it is "powerful" . He says the Holy spirit moves you as you read it. You "feel" something. Personally, I "feel" more reading a novel or watching a comedy or horror movie. I am much more moved by listening to Vivaldi or Puccini.

Anyway, I guess that is one of the most ridiculous arguments I hear a lot from Christians.

Originally posted by Ruby on 09-02-2003 in Contradictions needed!

It does help that I've had years of bible study. In the lists of contradictions, I know so many that can be explained away by fundamentalist christian. I know the aruments and pat answers. Some are pitiful...some are logical......few are logical.

Ruby wrote:
I was not aware that I have "Constantly" talked down about Christians. I will stand corrected if that is the case. Perhaps I have made a reputation on JREF for cutting down Christians without even realizing it.

Constantly is a subjective term I used loosely, nevertheless, you have done it sufficiently enough to accept challenges and observations.

That you successfully vilified me, does not stop me from asserting that my statements have gone unchallenged by you. And I believe that because of your comments, I have the right to make them without being perceived as an attacker (the villain)objectivity is hard to find. This crowd is as any, biased].

You have missrepresented my position. (this is another fact I point out.

And I believe you are wrong. You can't take a position and the complain if someone calls you on it.

Here our exchange in the blinding power of fear:

Ruby
Yes, it sure is. What you described above was one of the very type of things that caused me to rethink my belief system. I knew, that as a parent, if I had foreknowledge of my little girl being molested, raped, or killed, I would prevent it from happening.

"God" is supposed to have this foreknowledge....omiscience, but he lets tons of little girls and boys get raped and murdered every day all over the world. How could I believe such a god as this existed? "A loving parent" is how the christian church presents god...his love is supposed to be perfect!!! "He loves us more than we love our own children"....I heard that so many times. I bought it for awhile...but then it just did not add up..it did not play out at all.

Me:
You are entitle to your opinion, of course. But, in this specific instance, you are showing a poor understanding of the Christian dogma.

Ruby:
I lived with Christian dogma for about 13 years.......most of that was as a Charismatic Christian. I used to debate.....apologetics......on a Christian forum that I ran........so I know Christian dogma very well!!!

Me:
Well, I think you don't. Furthermore, I don't think you stopped being a Christian for intellectual reasons.

From your posts, I see very little intellectual reasoning and a lot of emotional elements.

The refutation for the "the suffering in world" by non-believers is very basic and straight forward. That you come out and say this is one of the reasons you had to rethink your belief system is intellectual lazyness or a cop-out answer.

Ruby:
Thanks for your kind words and very astute conclusion about my post. (major sarcasm!)

Why are you already resorting to insults with me?

I really don't care if you choose not to believe me, I know what the truth is, but it was intellectual reasons that began my ascent, into unbelief as a Christian....but these things were seeds..little doubts.....but along the way, a lot of emotional things happened too. When I left the church it was for a combination of emotional and intellectual reasons. I don't think I have ever denied that the church hurt me emotionally.

My departure from church began a big search and study to grasp all the logic, reason, science, and other proof that exists to disprove Christianity.......most of this happened on here....actually, I came on here when I was still a Christian.

Granted, I am not a great intellectual like most on this forum.....but most do not throw it in my face as you have just done. That just seems like typical Christian ego to me!! Thanks for the reminder!

Ruby:
It has so impacted and changed my life being on here. But I am no good for debates.....especially when people keep making sarcastic comments about my intelligence or rather my lack of it.

Me:
Ruby wrote:
Why are you already resorting to insults with me?

Please don't play the victim. I have been factual about my observations to you. If you find this insulting, it is the nature of a forum where debate is common.

I stand by my assertion as factual. You are suggesting name-calling and such. Far from it.

I really don't care if you choose not to believe me, I know what the truth is, but it was intellectual reasons that began my descent, into unbelief as a Christian....but these things were seeds..little doubts.....but along the way, a lot of emotional things happened too. When I left the church it was for a combination of emotional and intellectual reasons. I don't think I have ever denied that the church hurt me emotionally.

Well, I'm flat out saying you haven't done it for intellectual reasons. If you are in this new path of rationality and truth. Then you should be objective and prove me wrong.

My departure from church began a big search and study to grasp all the logic, reason, science, and other proof that exists to disprove Christianity.......most of this happened on here....actually, I came on here when I was still a Christian.

I have read many of your posts and in them you show very little intellectual work regarding logic, reason, science and other. This is a fact that I'm pointing out to you.

I have a personal interest in disputing your "conversion" because you are an example that the leap from Christian to atheism is not intellectual. And when you write about Christians, you put them down. I once had to call you on a particularly offensive comment.

If I say you are not being intellectual honest in this matter, instead of playing the victim, you should analize that. You should ponder it. It is your duty now that you are not bound by church dogma.

Now, in this arena, you must refute arguments on their merit, because in this arena anyone can question your beliefs. I question your beliefs. I want to know why you believe you have free will (as you have stated in this thread)

Granted, I am not a great intellectual like most on this forum.....but most do not throw it in my face as you have just done.

Again, you play the victim. If I say you are being intellectually lazy on this subject, accept it or refute it. It is an objective observation. Please don't translate that to mean you are less able intellectually.

You are in this new arena, the arena where you have to show your intellectual work. How you have come to conclusion and why. I have seen very little of this. Even now.

You are not neutral, you speak tons of bad thing about Christians. It is my right and duty to chanllenge your reasoning, your arguments.

That just seems like typical Christian ego to me!! Thanks for the reminder!

And in this particular instance you show exactly what I'm talking about.

Me:

Ruby wrote:
Why are you already resorting to insults with me?

Please don't play the victim. I have been factual about my observations to you. If you find this insulting, it is the nature of a forum where debate is common.

I stand by my assertion as factual. You are suggesting name-calling and such. Far from it.

I really don't care if you choose not to believe me, I know what the truth is, but it was intellectual reasons that began my descent, into unbelief as a Christian....but these things were seeds..little doubts.....but along the way, a lot of emotional things happened too. When I left the church it was for a combination of emotional and intellectual reasons. I don't think I have ever denied that the church hurt me emotionally.

Well, I'm flat out saying you haven't done it for intellectual reasons. If you are in this new path of rationality and truth. Then you should be objective and prove me wrong.

My departure from church began a big search and study to grasp all the logic, reason, science, and other proof that exists to disprove Christianity.......most of this happened on here....actually, I came on here when I was still a Christian.

I have read many of your posts and in them you show very little intellectual work regarding logic, reason, science and other. This is a fact that I'm pointing out to you.

I have a personal interest in disputing your "conversion" because you are an example that the leap from Christian to atheism is not intellectual. And when you write about Christians, you put them down. I once had to call you on a particularly offensive comment.

If I say you are not being intellectual honest in this matter, instead of playing the victim, you should analize that. You should ponder it. It is your duty now that you are not bound by church dogma.

Now, in this arena, you must refute arguments on their merit, because in this arena anyone can question your beliefs. I question your beliefs. I want to know why you believe you have free will (as you have stated in this thread)

Granted, I am not a great intellectual like most on this forum.....but most do not throw it in my face as you have just done.

Again, you play the victim. If I say you are being intellectually lazy on this subject, accept it or refute it. It is an objective observation. Please don't translate that to mean you are less able intellectually.

You are in this new arena, the arena where you have to show your intellectual work. How you have come to conclusion and why. I have seen very little of this. Even now.

You are not neutral, you speak tons of bad thing about Christians. It is my right and duty to chanllenge your reasoning, your arguments.

That just seems like typical Christian ego to me!! Thanks for the reminder!

Ruby:

Dang, I hate it when I say I'm taking a break and then I read a post like this and feel compelled to reply!!!!

quote:

Originally posted by Christian
Ruby wrote:
Why are you already resorting to insults with me?

Please don't play the victim. I have been factual about my observations to you. If you find this insulting, it is the nature of a forum where debate is common.



First you insult me, and now you are turning it around to put the blame back on me by accusing me of playing the "victim". Nice work!

That keeps your conscious free of having hurt my feelings. Very clever indeed.
quote:

I stand by my assertion as factual. You are suggesting name-calling and such. Far from it.



I don't think I'm off my head.....at least one person backed me up on this.

To me, what you have said, sounds like a total put down on my intelligence when it comes to my posts on here. I find it harsh.

Some people have the ability to be harsh and be absolutely blind to it. I find it fascinating to meet someone like that. The only other person I recall who was like that on here was Dark Cobra/Lord Kenneth.....but admittedly, he was even worse towards me.

quote:

I really don't care if you choose not to believe me, I know what the truth is, but it was intellectual reasons that began my ascent, into unbelief as a Christian....but these things were seeds..little doubts.....but along the way, a lot of emotional things happened too. When I left the church it was for a combination of emotional and intellectual reasons. I don't think I have ever denied that the church hurt me emotionally.

Well, I'm flat out saying you haven't done it for intellectual reasons. If you are in this new path of rationality and truth. Then you should be objective and prove me wrong.



For the most part, I don't feel that I owe you anything. Call it a cop-out or whatever you want. It is a fact that I have some cognitive problems.....due to an illness......and I am not as good at debates and being as intellectually sharp minded as I used to be in the past. It is also a fact, that, on the whole, I am not as intelligent as most of the people on JREF. Sometimes, this is daunting to me.....to come on here and read posts and have to sit and think hard to understand what is being said.
quote:

My departure from church began a big search and study to grasp all the logic, reason, science, and other proof that exists to disprove Christianity.......most of this happened on here....actually, I came on here when I was still a Christian.

I have read many of your posts and in them you show very little intellectual work regarding logic, reason, science and other. This is a fact that I'm pointing out to you.



Yes, this is a fact. I avoid most deep discussions on science and philosophical reasoning. It is way over my head. That does not mean there are not intellectual reasons why I left Christianity. It just means that the level of intelligence these discussions reach is over my head. It also means that I have hard time communicating what is in my brain.

Now, if I could persuade my husband to come on here.......he is much more an intellectual than I am. In fact, he is way way above me in intelligence being an engineering geek type.....but he could explain very well what it was that we struggled with intellectually as christians, and what led us away from Christianity. Anyhow, he is way too busy to do that.
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I have a personal interest in disputing your "conversion" because you are an example that the leap from Christian to atheism is not intellectual.



I only de-converted from Christianity last year. I don't exactly recall the month this happened in, but I think it was around August. I became an "agnostic" as soon as I left Christianity as I did not know any other label to use at the time, and I had a lot to sort out, and a lot to study.

I have never called myself an Atheist. Just recently, in this thread, I did make a comment about not believing God exists, I think.........but that's the first time I've said such a thing. I've been a Deist and a Secular Humanist for a few months now. I'm not so sure I believe there is a God, period, anymore......some days, I think there has to have been a creator, and other days I think no way, so I can't keep saying I'm a Deist. I am a Secular Humanist......and this is something that was actually drawing me away from Christianity, but I did not know it had a name.....and it took months before I discovered all about it. I have not explored that belief system to it's fullest, but it's already been life changing.

I don't consider myself an Atheist. I don't know a thing about being an atheist or the atheist defense. So, you have chosen the wrong subject to use as an example of a Christian making the leap from Christianty to Atheism not being an intellectual one.
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And when you write about Christians, you put them down. I once had to call you on a particularly offensive comment.



LOL. Are referring to this thread? http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/show...20&pagenumber=1

I started that thread and had made this statement in it Ruby wrote:
I AM SO F%%KING sick of fundamental Christians!!!!!

You replied Do you have the same level of tolerance for atheists?

To which I replied Sorry to offend you. I should have rephrased that statement to say "I am so F&&king sick of most fundamental Christians!!".

I realize that there are some nice fundamental Christians out there, but I feel sure that most of them would give me a bashing for the things I am believing in....or not believing in.

Most atheist's I have met online have been kind and understanding. I feel at home on JREF. Do you think if I posted on a fundamentalist Christian forum that I would get the same treatment? Not likely!! I'd be accused of being used of the devil or being possessed or deluded by the "dark side". I'd have scripture after scripture shoved down my throat and I'd be warned that I was on the highway to hell.

I am not willing to open myself up to more "spiritual"/emotional abuse.

Do you realize that I was still a Christian when I made all those statements? I had been deeply wounded by my church...my Pastor and some friends................the Pastor betrayed my husband's trust. It was all a mess. It caused about a third of the church to leave. I was very hurt. I was venting on here....a safe place to do so................except not safe from you....since you are throwing it back at me.

I really don't make a habit of slamming Christians. I do admit to losing my temper at times and getting upset at those Christians who are cruel and legalistic....but I have some friends and relatives who are Christians and I love them dearly and respect them as they respect and love me too.

Besides, if I am hurt or upset by a Christian, I have every right to come on here and vent about it.

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If I say you are not being intellectual honest in this matter, instead of playing the victim, you should analize that. You should ponder it. It is your duty now that you are not bound by church dogma.



Whatever you say. I don't feel duty bound to you. But just to let you know, I have pondered so much in the past six months. I have dicussed so much with my husband and we have both done lots of research. I am very tired right now.
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Now, in this arena, you must refute arguments on their merit, because in this arena anyone can question your beliefs. I question your beliefs. I want to know why you believe you have free will (as you have stated in this thread)



Because as a Christian, I had rules to live by based on bible interpretations according to what denomination I was in, church authority to answer to, criticism and expectations to follow me, condemnation to carry and live under, facades and appearances to keep up, never being able to take or give credit to yourself or others without including "God", or totally exluding yourself and/or others and giving it all to "God". I never felt that I had Freewill under these conditions. Now, with all that gone, I do.
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Granted, I am not a great intellectual like most on this forum.....but most do not throw it in my face as you have just done.
Again, you play the victim. If I say you are being intellectually lazy on this subject, accept it or refute it. It is an objective observation. Please don't translate that to mean you are less able intellectually.



In a sense, I am intellectually lazy. You will call this a cop-out or playing the victim.......but I am very tired now due to fibromyalgia. It's a painful illness that also effects cognitve abilties. I haven't got what it takes to debate things on a highly intellectual level. It seems nuts to debate whether or not I am intellectually lazy or not anyway......and not what this thread is about.

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You are in this new arena, the arena where you have to show your intellectual work. How you have come to conclusion and why. I have seen very little of this. Even now.



You are not my God, or my King or my Judge. I do not have to show you anything. This thread has not been about showing one's intellectual work. The topic is "The Blinding Power of Fear". The first post was not over my head....so I posted as I have been caught up in fear myself. Why do you have to turn this into some great big intellectual debate with me that has nothing to do with the thread topic, but all to do with me. Go pick on someone you own size!!

The rest is already on record.

 

[Some Friggin Guy]

Christian,

I don't want to step into a debate here, and I certainly can't speak for Ruby, but I can talk about my view on something you said and back it up with my own experience.

You mention that you think Ruby did not make her desicion for intellectual reasons. To that, I can only respond "yeah? And?"

The fact is, not everyone leaves the church for intellectual reasons. I am willing to bet that no one actually joins the church for intellectual reasons.

Whether she made her choice intellectually or not, she is still getting used to her situation, as she has stated herself.

The way I see it, coming from my own experiences, she has a right to be angry at christians. It'll pass, but it will show up sometimes. Since I live in the buckle of the bible belt and get treated like a second-class citizen by any of my neighbours who find out I am not a christian, and an out-right pariah byt the few who have found out I practice a Zen-Buddhist lifestyle, I can understand her anger.