A Conversation with Ruby
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Johnny Pneumatic
Master Poster
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Can I join in to?
This verse is why I became an atheist.
Matt 24:29
Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
This verse is why I became an atheist.
Matt 24:29
Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
a_unique_person
Director of Hatcheries and Conditioning
Ditto.
Spent years trying to convince myself I believed in god. Eventually gave it up as a waste of time. Many xians appear to me to be working very hard at convincing each other that they need no convincing.
Spent years trying to convince myself I believed in god. Eventually gave it up as a waste of time. Many xians appear to me to be working very hard at convincing each other that they need no convincing.
Marquis de Carabas
Penultimate Amazing
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Hey, I wanna play. I was even planning on going into the ministry at one point.
a_unique_person
Director of Hatcheries and Conditioning
I simply didn't find any happiness in my life till I gave up on this god business and looked around. I certainly didn't experience a brand new world that was only good and wonderful, but at least it was a start towards something better.
Things I agree with from www.atheists.org:
There is no proof of the existence of god.
There is no need of, or use for, a god.
A good god would be useless if it were not powerful.
A powerful god would not deserve worship if he were not good.
There is no all-powerful good god; otherwise there would be no imperfection.
Godism had to be fought when humankind made its successive steps toward science, liberty, and reform.
It is incredible that primitive humans guessed wrongly about everything else, but discovered the truth about the origin of life. Everything about which science has discovered the origin was claimed previously to have been the work of a god. Godism recedes when a new fact is discovered. No new discovery ever supports a theistic explanation of anything.
All revelation proves, on investigation, to be human, and generally fraudulent.
Atheism Teaches That...
There is no heavenly father.
Humankind must protect the orphans and foundlings, or they will not be protected.
There is no god to answer prayer.
Man must hear and help man.
There is no hell.
We have no vindictive god or devil to fear or imitate.
There is no atonement or salvation by faith.
We must face the consequences of our acts.
There is no beneficent or malevolent intent in nature.
Life is a struggle against preventable and unpreventable evils. The cooperation of humankind is the only hope of the world.
There is no chance after death to "do our bit."
We must do it now or never.
There is no divine guardian of truth, goodness, beauty, and liberty.
These are attributes of humankind. We must defend them or they will perish from the earth.
Also, reading contradictions in the bible. Many are listed on www.skepticsannotatedbible.com.
I do not wish to "deconvert" anyone. I only want separation of church and state, and for theists (the radical theists) to not tell me what to do with my body, with whom, etc. No taxes should be used for faith-based initiatives; let the money the churches collect go for those types of things.
I've said it before, I've found I live a more decent life since I realized I was an atheist. We should treat others as how we want to be treated, not because a god (god of abraham or otherwise) or a book tells us to.
There is no proof of the existence of god.
There is no need of, or use for, a god.
A good god would be useless if it were not powerful.
A powerful god would not deserve worship if he were not good.
There is no all-powerful good god; otherwise there would be no imperfection.
Godism had to be fought when humankind made its successive steps toward science, liberty, and reform.
It is incredible that primitive humans guessed wrongly about everything else, but discovered the truth about the origin of life. Everything about which science has discovered the origin was claimed previously to have been the work of a god. Godism recedes when a new fact is discovered. No new discovery ever supports a theistic explanation of anything.
All revelation proves, on investigation, to be human, and generally fraudulent.
Atheism Teaches That...
There is no heavenly father.
Humankind must protect the orphans and foundlings, or they will not be protected.
There is no god to answer prayer.
Man must hear and help man.
There is no hell.
We have no vindictive god or devil to fear or imitate.
There is no atonement or salvation by faith.
We must face the consequences of our acts.
There is no beneficent or malevolent intent in nature.
Life is a struggle against preventable and unpreventable evils. The cooperation of humankind is the only hope of the world.
There is no chance after death to "do our bit."
We must do it now or never.
There is no divine guardian of truth, goodness, beauty, and liberty.
These are attributes of humankind. We must defend them or they will perish from the earth.
Also, reading contradictions in the bible. Many are listed on www.skepticsannotatedbible.com.
I do not wish to "deconvert" anyone. I only want separation of church and state, and for theists (the radical theists) to not tell me what to do with my body, with whom, etc. No taxes should be used for faith-based initiatives; let the money the churches collect go for those types of things.
I've said it before, I've found I live a more decent life since I realized I was an atheist. We should treat others as how we want to be treated, not because a god (god of abraham or otherwise) or a book tells us to.
Marquis de Carabas
Penultimate Amazing
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The short version:
A lot of things didn't "click" with me, even as a small child. I always doubted. Most of my childhood and early teenage years were spent denying those doubts to myself. At sixteen, I went through a brief zealot phase where I pushed all doubt out of my mind, dedicated my life to the ministry, and generally became obnoxious. (I blame the drugs) Towards the end of that phase, I began reading Dawkins, then Russell, then Hume, and it slowly dawned on me that my doubts should be listened to. I called myself an agnostic. A few years later, I decided agnostic was a wimpy word, and went for atheist.
That's about it.
edited to say: Welcome to the Forums, Xev.
A lot of things didn't "click" with me, even as a small child. I always doubted. Most of my childhood and early teenage years were spent denying those doubts to myself. At sixteen, I went through a brief zealot phase where I pushed all doubt out of my mind, dedicated my life to the ministry, and generally became obnoxious. (I blame the drugs) Towards the end of that phase, I began reading Dawkins, then Russell, then Hume, and it slowly dawned on me that my doubts should be listened to. I called myself an agnostic. A few years later, I decided agnostic was a wimpy word, and went for atheist.
That's about it.
edited to say: Welcome to the Forums, Xev.
TruthSeeker
Illuminator
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Born and raised Catholic. Doubts started really early...I remember reading children's bibles looking for answers because I couldn't understand my parents' grown-up bible. Then, at school, in third or fourth grade, they got the New English Version (is that right?). I read it cover to cover. The doubts only intensified. I felt very guilty. Bad. Not "chosen" by God. Destined to burn in hell.
I kept trying to make myself believe. Sometimes, for brief periods, it worked. But always, I felt that god hated me because of my doubts.
In Catholic High School, I channelled all my "teen angst" into challenging the nuns. I probably knew the bible and the catechism better than they did. By my third year, I was no longer allowed to ask questions in religion class. But still, I struggled trying to find a way to believe.
In university, I took new testament and religious studies courses as electives or just audited them. One prof finally asked me "so, why don't you just live your life outside of Christianity?" I had never really thought I could.
A few years later, I started to. My life is much better now. I don't feel condemned or judged. I don't worry about a higher power that hates me. I feel free.
I kept trying to make myself believe. Sometimes, for brief periods, it worked. But always, I felt that god hated me because of my doubts.
In Catholic High School, I channelled all my "teen angst" into challenging the nuns. I probably knew the bible and the catechism better than they did. By my third year, I was no longer allowed to ask questions in religion class. But still, I struggled trying to find a way to believe.
In university, I took new testament and religious studies courses as electives or just audited them. One prof finally asked me "so, why don't you just live your life outside of Christianity?" I had never really thought I could.
A few years later, I started to. My life is much better now. I don't feel condemned or judged. I don't worry about a higher power that hates me. I feel free.
Well, Christian (and Ruby).
I guess you have to start again.
Can I suggest two threads? One to deal solely with Ruby's story (I'm genuinley interested in it) and one to discuss the conversation between yourself and Ruby (this thread would do).
Perhaps even a moderator could assist in keeping the first thread on topic.
Oh, and if I misconstrued your intent to keep it about Ruby, I apologize.
I guess you have to start again.
Can I suggest two threads? One to deal solely with Ruby's story (I'm genuinley interested in it) and one to discuss the conversation between yourself and Ruby (this thread would do).
Perhaps even a moderator could assist in keeping the first thread on topic.
Oh, and if I misconstrued your intent to keep it about Ruby, I apologize.
Tricky
Briefly immortal
I'm not sure Ruby will post here. Christian was uncharacteristically rude, mean and condescending with her. Maybe he didn't mean to be (and maybe he had a bad night with the twins), but I could scarcely blame Ruby for not inviting more attacks. Maybe if Christian promises to behave...
a_unique_person
Director of Hatcheries and Conditioning
Tricky said:
I think his type of thinking was one of the reasons Ruby quit the traditional xian churches in her area. Not xian enough maybe.
RandFanJr.
Thinker
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- Jul 20, 2002
- Messages
- 144
????Xev said:
Hmmmmm.......... ?????
I have no basis with which to understand this. I'm not calling in to question your credibility, just saying I don't understand. Why do you live a more "decent" life? Did being a believer take away your sense of morality or did being a believer pressure you to act in a way that was counter to your own sense of morality? If so how?
My life is not better and I am not a better person since I have become agnostic. I simply do not believe anymore. I do less charitable work because church was organized in such a way that helped me to be charitable. I have considered becoming a Unitarian in part because they offer many of the charitable programs that my church did along with other things I sincerely believe made me a better person (Unitarians I understand welcome atheists and agnostics and are less dogmatic).
I certainly understand anyone who claims that their life is better, but to claim to live a more decent life, I would love to know how and why?
Thank you,
RandFan
RandFanJr.
Thinker
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My journey from *Mormon to agnostic was a long and complex one. I was a true believer. Unlike my brothers and one of my sisters I went to church every week. When I was in my teens I was a youth leader, I graduated from seminary and I served a two year mission.
I can't point to any single item. There are many, many things that happened over a period of time that led me to a point where I made a commitment to seek truth in an intellectually honest and objective manner. I decided that if there was a God and he was the God of truth then I did not have to close my eyes to anything. To be honest with myself I would have to accept the truth what ever it was, even if it was counter to all that I believed and had stood for. I would also have to accept the possibility that I could be wrong. After that it was just a matter of time and study.
I wanted desperately for there to be a god. I wanted the Mormon Church to be true. I would have gladly accepted any Christian religion to be true. In the end I had no objective evidence to support religion, any religion whatsoever. The only things that I had in support of God and soul was "Intelligent Design", the "Human Mind" (hard problem of consciousness) and my own intuition.
I have proven that my own intuition is fallible. ID and HPOC are arguable at best and HPOC is not accepted by those in the field of neuroscience.
Intuitively I find it hard to accept that space and time are physical. Intellectually I have little choice but to accept them given both the evidence and the very real and measurable advances in science based on Einstein's theory of relativity.
When it comes to faith vs science, faith has to take a back seat. Wanting something to be real won't make it so. Feeling or believing something is real won't make it so.
*Mormons believe in Jesus Christ but are not considered Christian by many if not most Christians
I can't point to any single item. There are many, many things that happened over a period of time that led me to a point where I made a commitment to seek truth in an intellectually honest and objective manner. I decided that if there was a God and he was the God of truth then I did not have to close my eyes to anything. To be honest with myself I would have to accept the truth what ever it was, even if it was counter to all that I believed and had stood for. I would also have to accept the possibility that I could be wrong. After that it was just a matter of time and study.
I wanted desperately for there to be a god. I wanted the Mormon Church to be true. I would have gladly accepted any Christian religion to be true. In the end I had no objective evidence to support religion, any religion whatsoever. The only things that I had in support of God and soul was "Intelligent Design", the "Human Mind" (hard problem of consciousness) and my own intuition.
I have proven that my own intuition is fallible. ID and HPOC are arguable at best and HPOC is not accepted by those in the field of neuroscience.
Intuitively I find it hard to accept that space and time are physical. Intellectually I have little choice but to accept them given both the evidence and the very real and measurable advances in science based on Einstein's theory of relativity.
When it comes to faith vs science, faith has to take a back seat. Wanting something to be real won't make it so. Feeling or believing something is real won't make it so.
*Mormons believe in Jesus Christ but are not considered Christian by many if not most Christians
Some Friggin Guy
Muse
- Joined
- Aug 22, 2003
- Messages
- 854
I'm going to join in here as someone who was raised and was a staunch believer in christianity to the point of actually actively looking into becomming a priest.
This was many years ago, and I was too young to actually begin, mind you.
I was raised in a very strongly religious home and was taught all about the bible and such. I believed it with everything I had till I found out, when I was 15, a friend of mine had been molested by our priest. I was infuriated when I found out and I spoke up against the priest to the church community, who called my friend a liar and a tool of satan, etc. They threw the same names at me, too, eventually ex-comunicating us.
Naturally, being a "good christian" I prayed and sought answers from a god who would allow a man like that to be his chosen representative and who would deceive an entire community about it. No answers came in a flash of light.
SO I started to read.
I read and researched mythologies from around the world and throughout history. I compared the bible to the stories of Mithras, Herakles, Gilgamesh, etc. I found there was barely an original thought in the entire bible. All the mystic aspects were taken from earlier (and better written) myths. The mundane, moral aspects were mostly common sense, and those that weren't (ie, the bible view on homosexuality, which is questioned as a valid interperetation to this day) were based around prejudices against "pagan" beliefs.
And, I continue to read and research.
The more I do, the more I realize that, more than anything else, I pity religious people in general, and christians specifically.
I pity them, because they will never know the joy of being a good person without hollow threats of eternal torture.
I pity them because they (in general) can't see beyond the christ in their mind to see the saviour within everyone.
And I pity them because of trees.
A religious person will see a tree and try to ascribe it as a portion of the glory of something larger, thereby ignoring the tree, itself.
When I look at a tree, I see it as the glory of being a tree. It doesn't need to be anything more than a tree to me.
This was many years ago, and I was too young to actually begin, mind you.
I was raised in a very strongly religious home and was taught all about the bible and such. I believed it with everything I had till I found out, when I was 15, a friend of mine had been molested by our priest. I was infuriated when I found out and I spoke up against the priest to the church community, who called my friend a liar and a tool of satan, etc. They threw the same names at me, too, eventually ex-comunicating us.
Naturally, being a "good christian" I prayed and sought answers from a god who would allow a man like that to be his chosen representative and who would deceive an entire community about it. No answers came in a flash of light.
SO I started to read.
I read and researched mythologies from around the world and throughout history. I compared the bible to the stories of Mithras, Herakles, Gilgamesh, etc. I found there was barely an original thought in the entire bible. All the mystic aspects were taken from earlier (and better written) myths. The mundane, moral aspects were mostly common sense, and those that weren't (ie, the bible view on homosexuality, which is questioned as a valid interperetation to this day) were based around prejudices against "pagan" beliefs.
And, I continue to read and research.
The more I do, the more I realize that, more than anything else, I pity religious people in general, and christians specifically.
I pity them, because they will never know the joy of being a good person without hollow threats of eternal torture.
I pity them because they (in general) can't see beyond the christ in their mind to see the saviour within everyone.
And I pity them because of trees.
A religious person will see a tree and try to ascribe it as a portion of the glory of something larger, thereby ignoring the tree, itself.
When I look at a tree, I see it as the glory of being a tree. It doesn't need to be anything more than a tree to me.
Christian said:
Well, actually, I thought this thread was going to be about my supposed constant bashing of Christians?
I have already stated that I am not an Atheist. I am a Secular humanist.....and a Unitarian Universalist. You can see that from my Avatar with the symbols. I have not chosen an Atheist stance. I have not properly explored the Atheist belief system. I still ponder if it's possible for there to be a Creator. As I've said, some days I say "No way", and others, I think, "Yes, way!". I only de-converted six months ago......I'm still working through this....learning, etc.
