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Merged 2024 Election Thread

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I will occasionally look at 538 but started wondering why I go there. Yes, they run the average some polls but snce the polls have a wide range of numbers, each poll is a bit suspect.

And who polled correctly in 2019 or early 2020?
 
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I got called a couple years ago. About 7 questions in it became obvious it was a push poll. I told the person calling to **** off and hung up.

:D We think alike. I ask at the beginning if it is a push poll, they say no, and as soon as it's obvious it is I explain to the poll taker (because they are usually just hired callers) what a push poll is and hang up.

I don't answer most of the calls I get but once in a while I do.

I had to look up "push poll" as I wasn't familiar with the term (but I've come across the actual polls).

For anyone else who needs it:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Push_poll
 
Problem with that scenario...

Impeach Trump, and whomever was picked as his Vice President becomes president. You could end up with someone who is just as corrupt/incompetent, but because they "tweet less" look like a better choice as an incumbent when it comes to re-election time.

Oh yeah...that worked so well the last time. You need a 2/3rds to get him out of office right? You think the Dems will be able to hold such a majority?
 
Hmm, IMO we do. Unless I'm actually allowed to see the ballots myself, I am taking it on faith that the counting is done accurately and fairly. I do of course know that there are people out there that want to subvert the process... like the guy who used to be POTUS.

ETA: and I'd argue that our process for choosing the POTUS is pretty damned byzantine.

It’s orders of magnitude more difficult to rig an election than it is to rig a poll, thus making their results inherently more trustworthy.

The bottom line is this: Polling is telling us that Trump would beat Biden, but voters keep rejecting Trump’s brand of politics over and over again. So either Biden is a uniquely unpopular figure in the history of politics or the polls are missing something.
 
Trump is tied to it .. but it's not 100% overlap. It's not that if you voted for abortion rights, you will vote for Biden, and vice versa.
I'm claiming the different in overlap is bigger than theoretical error of the poll.

And the data you provided to support this claim is stunning in its depth and robustness.
 
It’s orders of magnitude more difficult to rig an election than it is to rig a poll, thus making their results inherently more trustworthy.

The bottom line is this: Polling is telling us that Trump would beat Biden, but voters keep rejecting Trump’s brand of politics over and over again. So either Biden is a uniquely unpopular figure in the history of politics or the polls are missing something.
Or the polls have a result they want to use for media sensationalism and draw attention to themselves, and are quite prepared to filter the numbers to intimate support that result.

It's not that they want to say that milquetoast but effective Biden is clearly out in front. They want to say that media sensation and popularity magnet Trump is "running a close race".
 
"Biden is boring" is typical Trump style of argumentation. He won't argue with numbers and statistics. It got him elected once, and his approval improved since his loss, while Biden's dropped. He won't change his style, I doubt he's even capable of it. But it does work on many people. Roughly 50%. Doesn't it make you nervous ?

Whenever fascism is on the ballot it makes me nervous. That doesn’t lead me to reality-denying pessimism that sounds suspiciously a lot like the vibes-based doom-and-gloom pushed by the media to generate clicks.

To everybody here: what makes you think Trump will not win ?

For the record, I acknowledge that Trump certainly can win. And if he does, it will be no one’s fault except the people who voted for him.

That being said, the reasons that make me hopeful he won’t are 1) Biden already beat him once and can do it again, 2) MAGA has been a loser at the ballot box for five years running, and 3) he faces a historically unprecedented litany of legal problems that are only now just kicking into gear.
 
I will occasionally look at 538 but started wondering why I go there. Yes, they run the average some polls but snce the polls have a wide range of numbers, each poll is a bit suspect.

There are many genuine issues with polling accuracy but sceptics should not be making criticisms which are based on fundamental misunderstandings of how statistics and polling work, like the one I corrected in post #132. Let's make sure we're criticising the actual shortcomings and sources of error, rather than demonstrating our own ignorance.
 
You are forgetting about the large number of low information voters. They may not be paying attention to anything that isn't blasted all over the news for days at a time. Right now they see Trump's face and people calling Biden too old.

Wait till the headlines are Trump Org kicked out of NY, Trump not really a billionaire, and soon to follow, Trump going to jail. Those will be big headlines even the low information voters can't miss.


I don't know what a buttery male is.

The 'Trump disclosed security secrets that got to Hamas' is just getting going in those glaring headlines. That might just counter Biden supporting Israel's slaughter of Palestinians.



And?

I think all the current points that are going to made about the polls have been made. None of the polls claiming I should be worried about Trump beating Biden concern me.

Buttery Males refers to comments during the 2016 election. Any query about Donald Trump's suitability to be President due to his long history of lying, cheating and being a serial sex offender was deflected by saying "But her emails" about the whipped up controversy over Hillary Clinton's emails.
 
Trump voters claim they want him because of his business acumen.
It's now an uncontested fact that the Trump way of business is to lie about what you have is worth.
Of course, the MAGA crowd is so deep into The Secret mentality that they can't tell the difference between something being something and something only looking like something.
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You don't understand my objection to Biden. I see it as who can stop Trump. If Biden can do it again, fine, but I'd rather have a younger person.

If Trump wins, then all the people who said let's just accept the inevitable and nominate Biden again it'll be fine trust me will have some explaining to do.

After thirty years now, I'd have thought people would have seen enough of the milquetoast, slightly less cruel, "we don't want to be evil, but we have to be 'for the good of the country'" right wing thinking that's supposed to represent moderatism never works against half way well advertised red in tooth and claw "up yours, I got mine" conservatism.

Why have skim milk when you can get full fat.
 
Yeah great whatever.

Until we get rid of first past the post/EC style voting you only have two choices that's reality.

Your morals mean nothing. Your standards mean nothing. The reality is that every single eligible vote that doesn't go to Biden in 2024; be it a 3rd party vote, a protest vote, be a "They didn't offer me a perfect candidate so I'm gonna stay home" non-vote, is an active vote for Trump.
 
"Don't think of it as a vote For Biden, just think of it as a vote Against Trump, the free world depends on it."
It's a bit long for a bumper sticker, but an honest assessment.
 
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Also all the things that MIGHT make third party candidates viable or get us out of this "Voting for the lesser of two evils" thing ain't gonna happen if Trump gets in power again.

You think the Republicans are gonna let the EC lose any power seeing as how they haven't had a President actually win the popular vote in what like two decades now?

You think Republicans want us to actually have a viable choice between Their Evil and Various Forms of Good where we can vote for one of the Various Forms of Good without splitting our power and cutting our own legs off?

Even if you're one issue voter and "End of the Two Party System" is your one issue, you still need to vote for Biden.
 
Citation for highlighted, please.

From The Washington Times:

Election polls from 2016 were a case study in failure

What 2016 should have taught the US is that polls, as a necessity, cannot correct for GQP cheating (before even a single ballot was cast, Hillary Clinton was effectively 10,000,000 votes behind because of cheating in GQP stayes), and that elections for national office are far too important to be left in the hands of state level political appointees.
 
There are many genuine issues with polling accuracy but sceptics should not be making criticisms which are based on fundamental misunderstandings of how statistics and polling work, like the one I corrected in post #132. Let's make sure we're criticising the actual shortcomings and sources of error, rather than demonstrating our own ignorance.

We can only compare the success rates of polls. Polls need to reach a good sample of the public. Some of them don't. Also the questions asked reflect the items in the press at the time. Nobody ever asks "what is important about the candidate to you that we have not asked?" Since you could not sort the answers well from that, it would require a new poll to add the most important "missing" item.

The statistics is not the problem. The problem it that the polled people do not undestand the question the way the pollsters think they do.
 
What 2016 should have taught the US...
From that link:

The site Five Thirty Eight projected that Hillary Clinton had a 71.4% chance of an Electoral College victory... The New York Times projected an 85% chance of a Clinton presidency.
That means they were predicting 28.6% and 15% chances of Trump winning. Here's a graph from "538" showing that they had the win/loss odds going up & down at a fairly constant interval over the period leading up to election day, with election day being at the lowest point in the cycle, predicted at 64½ Hillary and 35½ Trump right before the election. Here's another showing the distribution of their predictions under different models, showing how close the dividing line between a Hillary win and a Trump win was to the middle of the range ahead of time. Here's an article they published in September that year titled "Democrats Should Panic If The Polls Still Look Like This In A Week", which includes a map showing each of the states that failed us in blue, but pale blue, close to a white toss-up, and it has their borders in a thicker black line than most other borders, which the map key shows was their label for states they identified ahead of time as "tipping points". The information was there all along. Those who paid attention to it were warning us all along. Those who said everything's fine were simply not using it, not basing anything they said on the facts.

Ironically, I bumped into those graphs (my first two links of the three) while searching for something else, and they happen to have ironically been embedded in this ironical election-day Huffington Post article ironically titled "What's Wrong With 538" which ironically actually shows both that 538 had gotten it right while HP had gotten it wrong, and also how.

Given the fact that all of the article's data showed 538 being right and the article's author(s) being wrong, what was the basis for their conclusion going exactly the opposite way from the data, on election day but before the results were in (and treating Hillary's obvious win as an inevitable foregone conclusion)? If you read the article, you can see their "reasoning" all over the place in plain English, so there's no need to try to infer it. Each time they show a data point they don't like, they just answer it with "That leads to this conclusion. This conclusion obviously can't be right, so pointing to it proves them wrong". You couldn't ask for a more direct, obvious, textbook example of starting at the conclusion. They're literally telling us themselves "We start at our conclusion!".

But at least that one showed the data. The link in your post is mostly notable for its lack of it and biased filtering of it. The only thing it had other than what I've already quoted was a few survey percentages in certain states, showing not how big Hillary's supposed advantage was on election day or as an average over the previous x months but simply the biggest they'd ever peaked at at any time over the previous several months. The entire rest of the article was just narrative. So what's the source for the conclusion? That was it right there: narrative alone, with nothing else there for it to even possibly have come from. Again, that's a demonstration of the process: ignore data, just stick to the approved narrative as proof of itself. It's the only way to get back to the conclusion you started at.

I was going to compare the survey numbers in the states that mattered with the election results, but I'm out of time. For reference, here's the election outcome data. Look how wildly hugely different it is from the predictions! Sometimes up to a whole couple of points!
 
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Or the polls have a result they want to use for media sensationalism and draw attention to themselves, and are quite prepared to filter the numbers to intimate support that result.

It's not that they want to say that milquetoast but effective Biden is clearly out in front. They want to say that media sensation and popularity magnet Trump is "running a close race".
A close race sells the news. I'm not too upset by it, it also motivates Democratic voters to get out and vote.

I wonder how many tuned into last night's debate? It's down to 5 vultures waiting for Trump to die.
 
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