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Merged 2024 Election Thread

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It’s orders of magnitude more difficult to rig an election than it is to rig a poll, thus making their results inherently more trustworthy.

The bottom line is this: Polling is telling us that Trump would beat Biden, but voters keep rejecting Trump’s brand of politics over and over again. So either Biden is a uniquely unpopular figure in the history of politics or the polls are missing something.

I think the polling is generally accurate. What they are missing is human nature. Lots of people right now, a year out, think of both Trump and Biden as deeply unpopular and a lot of them right now, are saying they won't vote for either. BUT when push comes to shove a lot of them are going to vote for someone. And, in my personal opinion, the majority will think of Biden as the least bad choice. Thats my own personal, talking to people who don't spend one tenth the amount of time thinking of politics in RL as we do here, opinion poll analysis.
 
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Yeah great whatever.

Until we get rid of first past the post/EC style voting you only have two choices that's reality.

Your morals mean nothing. Your standards mean nothing. The reality is that every single eligible vote that doesn't go to Biden in 2024; be it a 3rd party vote, a protest vote, be a "They didn't offer me a perfect candidate so I'm gonna stay home" non-vote, is an active vote for Trump.

100%.
 
What 2016 should have taught the US is that polls, as a necessity, cannot correct for GQP cheating (before even a single ballot was cast, Hillary Clinton was effectively 10,000,000 votes behind because of cheating in GQP stayes), and that elections for national office are far too important to be left in the hands of state level political appointees.

2016 election truthers are a lot smaller group than the 2020 crowd, but every bit as moronic.
 
You think the Republicans are gonna let the EC lose any power seeing as how they haven't had a President actually win the popular vote in what like two decades now?
Minor nitpick... Bush Jr. did win the popular vote (50.7%) in the 2004 general election. Of course, he was an incumbent president at the time (with the advantages that that tends to bring). Before that, you have to go back to 1988 and Bush Sr. to find another election where the republicans won the popular vote.

For the most part I agree with your premise though... republicans benefit from the use of the electoral college (as opposed to the popular vote) and don't want to change it for that reason.
 
A lot might not know. But some do know he lost. I suspect its a case where most MAGAchud just don't care rather than don't know.
You are forgetting about the large number of low information voters. They may not be paying attention to anything that isn't blasted all over the news for days at a time. Right now they see Trump's face and people calling Biden too old.
I am not forgetting about them.... I am just more pessimistic about the chance to reach them.

Wait till the headlines are Trump Org kicked out of NY, Trump not really a billionaire, and soon to follow, Trump going to jail. Those will be big headlines even the low information voters can't miss.
Trump does have a host of civil and criminal trials that he will likely lose. But, i suspect there will be appeals o'plenty that might push off some of the worst outcomes (such as incarceration) until after the election.

Judge: "Guilty". Trump lawyer: "We will appeal". Judge: "Trump is on bail until appeal is resolved". Voter: "Trump must be innocent because he's not behind bars".

Trump gave away national secrets to the Russians and the Iranians. He gave information regarding nuclear submarine deployments to an Australian business man. Republican supporters do not care about issues of national security if it doesn't involve "Buttery males".
I don't know what a buttery male is.
Another poster already explained this...

"Buttery males" is a version of "But her emails", the typical rallying cry when anyone pointed out any of the criminal or moral failings of Trump. "Trump defrauded students at Trump University"... "But her emails..."... "Trump defrauded charities"... "But her emails...". "Trump has ties to russia". "Buttery males".

The 'Trump disclosed security secrets that got to Hamas' is just getting going in those glaring headlines. That might just counter Biden supporting Israel's slaughter of Palestinians.
Trump voters will probably claim "But... that was so far in the past just let it go. Oh, by the way, Hillary was the devil".

True, not all of them do. But fivethirtyeight does an aggregate where they combine multiple polls (weighted by their reliability and age).
And?
The fact that they do an aggregate means that there is less chance that a single poll you are looking at is an outlier.
 
Statistics and predictions aren't magic.

When someone says something has a 1 in 10 chance of happening and it happens that just means the 1 in 10 (which isn't like some insane level of impossible thing that could never happen, it's just 'mostly unlikely') thing just happened to be the thing that happened in that case. It doesn't "break" polling or statistics as a concept.
 
No they cannot control who decides to take a survey.

But pollsters are smart people. They know how to adjust the statistics to compensate.
...
The average polling results in both the 2016 and 2020 presidential elections were both within 5% of the final results, so they must be doing SOMETHING right.
Citation for highlighted, please.
According to fivethirtyeight...

2016 election: the last polls before the election had clinton winning the popular vote by 3.9%. The actual results had Clinton winning by 2.1%. So a difference of 1.8%.

fivethirtyeight (2016 election)

2020 election: the last polls before the election had Biden winning the popular vote by 8.4%. Biden won the election by 4.5%. So a difference of 3.9%.

fivethirtyeight (2020 election)

From The Washington Times:

Election polls from 2016 were a case study in failure

The 2016 polls in swing states were way off. The site Five Thirty Eight projected that Hillary Clinton had a 71.4% chance of an Electoral College victory. The site projected big leads in Florida (2%), Wisconsin (5%), Michigan (4%) and Pennsylvania (4%). The New York Times projected an 85% chance of a Clinton presidency. Larry Sabato’s Crystal Ball projected Clinton would win 322 electoral votes. No pollster projected a Trump victory, because of faulty poll data in the critical states of Wisconsin, Michigan and Pennsylvania.
Keep in mind that this was not necessarily a problem with the polling data, but a problem with the analysts and "talking heads".

Furthermore:

- A chance of a clinton victory of 71% or 85% is far from a sure thing. Would you bet your life's savings on a lottery that where there was a 1 in 4 chances in losing? A "Likely winner" is not the same as "a guaranteed winner"

- The data in various swing states was not "faulty" per se... but, because of the nature of polling, the margin of error was higher in those states. Analysts didn't pay enough attention to that.
 
It doesn't "break" polling or statistics as a concept.
And those who claim it does, in response to data they don't like, don't even really think it does either. If they really bought what they're selling, they'd respond the same way to data they do like.
 
...
The fact that they do an aggregate means that there is less chance that a single poll you are looking at is an outlier.
Not if they include the outliers which skew the results.

Then there is the issue of the timing of the polls they use. In a fast moving pre-election time period that could also skew the results.


Bottom line, I'm not that interested in the polls yet.
 
The fact that they do an aggregate means that there is less chance that a single poll you are looking at is an outlier.
Not if they include the outliers which skew the results.
If you mix one outlier poll with a dozen polls that are relatively similar, then the outlier will have only a small, minimal effect.
Then there is the issue of the timing of the polls they use. In a fast moving pre-election time period that could also skew the results.
Yes, there is a lot of time between now and November 2024. Plenty of events might affect Biden's and Trump's popularity in that time.

But that doesn't mean that there isn't a need for concern. The fact that there can be so many things that SHOULD have caused Trump's popularity to crater but haven't is not a good sign.
 
I don't need a poll to tell me how dangerous Trump is or to tell me how dangerous it is the GOP and the alt-right are doing everything they can to create a minority ruled authoritarian control of this country.

But then I'm not a low-information voter. IOW your debating about polls is lost on me. I'm sure there are others in the thread who you could have this discussion with.
 
And those who claim it does, in response to data they don't like, don't even really think it does either. If they really bought what they're selling, they'd respond the same way to data they do like.

Please stop telling us what we 'really think' in an attempt to bolster what you think. I don't trust polls. Period. Getting stung badly in 2016 was enough for me.
 
Interesting Times article on this latest poll:


The New York Times/Siena College survey may also be significantly understating Biden’s support and overstating Trump’s. Trump’s supporters are particularly exercised right now because he is under attack from a variety of sources and their first reaction is always to defend him. Biden, who is in the midst of making hard calls on Israel, Ukraine and other difficult domestic issues, is invariably going to be making many people upset, even within his own coalition. This tends to look bad for an incumbent in a non-election year, but partisans pretty typically “come home” to their parties during an election year as they are reminded of the stakes.

And there are a number of ways in which that poll struggles to pass the smell test. It shows 22% of Black voters backing Trump when he won 12% of that demographic in 2020, with that figure often below 10% for Republican presidential candidates. The poll shows voters under 30 preferring Biden by only one percentage point; Biden won that group by double digits three years ago.

Is it possible that these Democratic leaning groups have moved so quickly in the Republican direction? It’s possible, but not particularly probable — demographic change in political support rarely happens that quickly, even allowing for some past polls being relatively accurate a year before an election.

One thing we do know is that presidential election results have been pretty rigid in the last two decades. Trump got 46% of the vote in 2016 and 47% in 2020; he’ll probably do around the same in 2024 if he is the Republican nominee. Chances are, we’re going to end up with a very close election, with the winner being determined by just tens of thousands of voters in a handful of swing states. This is the way elections are going in this era, and we don’t need a poll to know this.
Seth Masket is a professor of political science and director of the Center on American Politics at the University of Denver.
 
I said it before, and I say it again:

Polls that are good for Trump are GOOD FOR BIDEN!

The fear in 2016 was that people would vote for Trump if they see from polls that enough other people will vote for him.
That turned out to be a flawed idea back then, and it remains so now.

Generally speaking, people are looking for excuses NOT to vote for Democrats, and polls that suggest that a Democrat would win handsomely only makes people stay home, whereas the reverse is not true for Republicans.

The best way to mobilize voters in 2024 for Biden is to make it look like Trump will win.
 
I said it before, and I say it again:

Polls that are good for Trump are GOOD FOR BIDEN!

The fear in 2016 was that people would vote for Trump if they see from polls that enough other people will vote for him.
That turned out to be a flawed idea back then, and it remains so now.

Generally speaking, people are looking for excuses NOT to vote for Democrats, and polls that suggest that a Democrat would win handsomely only makes people stay home, whereas the reverse is not true for Republicans.

The best way to mobilize voters in 2024 for Biden is to make it look like Trump will win.


Agreed. People came out in 2020 to vote AGAINST Trump and we need to make it clear that apathy could put him back in the WH.
 
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