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Conservatives and climate change

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You mean the subsidies that Lomiller has falsely said I favor?

I don know what he said and doesn't matter.
i wanted to see those cost benefit analysis you claimed are need to create policies. what is the calculation of the cost in regard to increased CO² levels by those policies?
 
On second thought, I think you are completely wrong. Here's why.

Ben, Trakker and I all personally favor nuclear energy. We may come to that point from way different perspectives, but on a imperative for a huge expansion of nuclear, we agree. It would be ridiculous for Ben, Trakker and Mhaze to refuse to discuss nuclear energy unless they all agreed first of all on some common set of beliefs regarding some vague creed on "climate change".

I'm sure you can think of many examples of that sort.

you all agree that Nuclear reaction works to generate elecrticity.
what sense would it make to debate nuclear technology with someone that beliefs it is all a hoax and nuclear technology does actually not work at all?
 
Do you honestly suggest large wealth transfer from the first world will solve that?

Fair pricing for CO2 emissions is not a “wealth transfer”, just the opposite in fact it puts a halt to a wealth transfer. Just because you happen to be on the receiving end of that transfer doesn’t make it a right or something you are entitled to.
 
what sense would it make to debate nuclear technology with someone that beliefs it is all a hoax and nuclear technology does actually not work at all?


I wondered the same thing. That analogy didn't work for me either.
 
On second thought, I think you are completely wrong. Here's why.

Ben, Trakker and I all personally favor nuclear energy. We may come to that point from way different perspectives, but on a imperative for a huge expansion of nuclear, we agree. It would be ridiculous for Ben, Trakker and Mhaze to refuse to discuss nuclear energy unless they all agreed first of all on some common set of beliefs regarding some vague creed on "climate change".

I'm sure you can think of many examples of that sort.

Sure, but if for example Trakkar didn't believe the science behind nuclear energy and instead thought no power was being produced by nuclear power stations and the whole thing was a big scam by scientists and Al Gore, would there be much point in debating the best method for implementing a nuclear renaissance with him?
 
Sure, but if for example Trakkar didn't believe the science behind nuclear energy and instead thought no power was being produced by nuclear power stations and the whole thing was a big scam by scientists and Al Gore, would there be much point in debating the best method for implementing a nuclear renaissance with him?

And note that there IS a CT that says just that.
 
you all agree that Nuclear reaction works to generate elecrticity.
what sense would it make to debate nuclear technology with someone that beliefs it is all a hoax and nuclear technology does actually not work at all?

Sure, but if for example Trakkar didn't believe the science behind nuclear energy and instead thought no power was being produced by nuclear power stations and the whole thing was a big scam by scientists and Al Gore, would there be much point in debating the best method for implementing a nuclear renaissance with him?

That's not the first nonsensical analogy to come from the science-deniers in this thread.

It's kind of hard to have a rational debate with someone who struggles with such a basic rhetorical device.
 
This is the right place: please do so.

Okay, what, in your considered opinion, is the best set of policies to use to eliminate the combustion of fossil fuels within the next couple of decades or sooner?
 
Call me an idiot, but if my island was getting swallowed up by the sea, I think the first thing i'd build would be more airports.

Okay, you're an idiot, unless you want to argue that evacuation using the current facilities would take too long.
 
Okay, you're an idiot, unless you want to argue that evacuation using the current facilities would take too long.

I wasn't being serious. If you were, then you need to show that it was claimed (by credible environmental sources or respectable scientific bodies) that the sea levels were rising too fast in the maldives for a new airport terminal to bring in a reasonable amount of profit from tourism. I've read that they're in danger of losing alot of land, but the articles I recall seeing said the threat was over the next 50 years or so, not immediately.
 
Now, how to reduce CO2;

1. Fund a new generation of nuclear reactors, breeder reactors with fuel reprocessing to back them up. Lease them to power utilities for cost recovery.

2. Fund a series of experimental thorium energy amplifier reactors, with a goal to make this the dominant energy technology in 20 years.

I've no real problem with either of these first two issues, I'm not sure why we should be leasing them back to private industry to sell the power, that seems like a corporate welfare system, that I'd rather not engage in, they are historically difficult teats to withdraw once industry (and congressmen) begin suckling. We should probably explore all of our options here to include a quasi-governmental corporation perhaps in conjunction with the Corps of Engineers.

3. Continue to fund ITER.

I am not opposed to the ITER. I, of course, am not saying to throw money at anything, but I believe the US share of ITER's annual budget is around 10% (currently in the neighborhood of $150-200M). I see no reason not to engage in further participation provided the research is progressing acceptably towards the goal of commercial fusion power production.

4. Fund cutting-edge new fusion technology such as the Buzzard Polywell device.

Rather than specifying any single energy research and development program, how about providing a more securely funded energy research and development agency that will coordinate and fund out of its own annual budget a range of energy production, storage, distribution, and application research, with dedicated nuclear and alternative divisions of research. We might even combine steps 3 & 4 into one step.

5. Mandate full electrification of class-1 railroads by 2032. Provide tax credits to defray this cost.

not sure of your reasoning for distinction. Why not mandate 10% switch over within 10 years, 50% within 20 and 100% within 30? Require it for all railroad classes. I like the tax credit defrayment, and would like to see a similar defrayment on individual passenger fare, as well, as part of a means to incentivise and offset rail travel inconveniences and costs.

6. Fund all of the above entirely on a new tax on all coal extracted from the ground, and all oil that gets imported.

(BTW, the effect of 6 will be to make China pay for much of this, as they NEED our coal.)

We probably need to examine and discuss in detail the revenue side of carbon taxes and how these are to be used to both keep the taxation system progressive and provide some short term transitional investment funds for projects like this. Perhaps we need something like a Carbon Bank to accumulate carbon taxes seperate from general taxation revenues, and then to disperse low-income offset funds and make low-interest loans/investments into appropriate transitional technologies and infrastructure.

It has to be remembered that the purpose of a carbon tax is to eliminate the use of carbon fuels, not provide a sustained new source of revenue to play with and fund programs that are going to need long term investment. A carbon bank would also help stretch these funds as the low interest loans/investments are paid back intothe bank.
 
This is simply wrong. Some of these scientific understandings are well-established (e.g., absorption and emission spectra by gasses in the lab), while others are not well-established (e.g., strength of feedback processes in the atmosphere, biosphere, and oceans, and the contribution of variations in the solar flux to variations in Earth's mean surface temperature). To state otherwise is to deny large sections of basic physics, chemistry and planetary science.

Not necessarily true. We've seen a lot of exaggeration and pure alarmism on various views on this subject. "Urgent action now", blah blah blah, and Al Gore's famous "Sliding ten year forecast of doom".

But not necessarily true regardless of those realities. You're a fool if you think you are going to contribute anything to that "scientific determination" by posting on an internet forum. Particularly one in which the thread is policy options.

What I think is that various warmers posting here are just relapsing into posting dogma, things that their belief structures tell them are true. They, including you, are uncomfortable going into a straight out discussion about adaptation vs mitigation, doing nothing as a viable option, and are loath to have the premises questioned. Those premises include Big Government is Good and will Save the Planet.

Along with other circus acts.

Two parts of this are objectionable.

A). A holier than thou, condescending attitude.
B). A request for a recitation of belief before a discussion as to how you want to spend my (and others) money.

Both are ridiculous. (A) is consistent with faith driven behavior. (B) is also consistent with faith driven behavior.

However, people do all the time discuss public policy with others of radically differing opinions and beliefs.

These perfectly exemplify the denial of science and reality that prevent meaningful policy discussion.
 
Do you honestly suggest large wealth transfer from the first world will solve that?

What it will do is move more politically connected people into the 1%.

I see no indication that any of this is the only way to accomplish the goals necessary to deal with AGW issues, and I certainly wouldn't consider the above, as stated, to be the best or even viably appropriate means of addressing these issues.
 
These perfectly exemplify the denial of science and reality that prevent meaningful policy discussion.
You are welcome to your opinion.

I don't share it, but it does typify the current congress and administration; in fact every congress.
 
Sure, but if for example Trakkar didn't believe the science behind nuclear energy and instead thought no power was being produced by nuclear power stations and the whole thing was a big scam by scientists and Al Gore, would there be much point in debating the best method for implementing a nuclear renaissance with him?
I think what you are saying is that if someone doesn't believe in whatever the latest trend is in Fear of Carbon Dioxide, then none of the big money projects like the windmills and the solar farms will make sense.

I disagree, since nuclear would make sense irregardless, and there might be some market niches where both windmills and solar have cost effectiveness.
 
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I think what you are saying is that if someone doesn't believe in whatever the latest trend is in Fear of Carbon Dioxide, then none of the big money projects like the windmills and the solar farms will make sense.

I disagree, since nuclear would make sense irregardless, and there might be some market niches where both windmills and solar have cost effectiveness.

Excluding the hippy rhetoric, what makes these scientist wrong Mhaze?
 
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