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Conservatives and climate change

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Furcifer;7946807[URL="http://www.climatescience.gov/Library/sap/sap3-1/final-report/sap3-1-final-all.pdf" said:
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Largely a popularized fluff piece, no wonder you are having difficulties with proper interpretations and understandings. Try something with a little meat in it like: "Principles of Planetary Climate" - http://www-das.uwyo.edu/~deshler/Atsc4400_5400_Climate/PierreHumbert_Climate_Ch1.pdf

Can't. It's not possible. As we've spread around the planet like cockroaches we've changed the very surface of the planet in the process, this affects the Earth's albedo. There have been what we call anthropogenic changes to the Earth's albedo which have changed the Earth's climate.

and you believe that it is impossible to reverse and/or compensate for human albedo change issues?

Then I strongly suggest tearing down your house, recycle your car and move into a nice sod cabin in the woods. :p ...

In your mind, those are the only options you perceive? Keep doing as we are doing or revert to the neolithic lifestyle? Seriously?
 
I agree. The question is why do you trust a tiny minority of people with mostly questionable credentials instead of the vast body of academics that are willing to accept reality? It's just not rational.
"The vast body of academics" are not specialists in paleoclimate reconstruction. They took the word of a few people who have destroyed their credibility with their behavior (withholding data) and their words, as revealed in the leaked emails. I have said before, I am not competent to judge the science. I can assess the behavior.
 
"The vast body of academics" are not specialists in paleoclimate reconstruction. They took the word of a few people who have destroyed their credibility with their behavior (withholding data) and their words, as revealed in the leaked emails.

This is entirely false, Malcolm.

It is also irrelevant.

Please either fully and completely embrace AGW or refute one of the two following facts:

1) The historical CO2 and CH4 content of the atmosphere (available from multiple sources)
2) The IR behavior of CO2 and CH4 (which you can do on your own tabletop if you have to, but which is also available from multiple sources).

Your choice. EIther you accept AGW or you can disprove one of those two issues with a testable, verifiable experiment.
 
My apologies, I was working off my rather poor memory, rather than looking up the details. Cheers for the link.

((This is a messageboard and yours wasn't an offensive slip, don't worry about apologies, I was merely trying to add emphasis to your argument, I did not mean to come across as chastising, and if I did, I do offer my own apologies))

Yeah, Archer has a lot of good work in the field. He and Pierrehumbert are Chicago's Climate Change dynamic duo.
 
"The vast body of academics" are not specialists in paleoclimate reconstruction.

True, but out of all the climatologists in the world (tens of thousands) the vast majority of those who publish in science journals accept and support what the consensus on climate change says.

The question (again) is, why do you take the word of a tiny minority of people, most of which have no climate science credetials at all.

They took the word of a few people who have destroyed their credibility with their behavior (withholding data)

As has been shown to you, no data was withheld. That you keep lying about this shows that you are unwilling to learn.

I have said before, I am not competent to judge the science. I can assess the behavior.

But, why do you take the word of a tiny minority of people, most of which have no climate science credetials at all.
 
Nonsense.
I see you have resorted to your usual 'nonsence' hand-waving because you've lost a debating point and don't have a sensible response.

:rolleyes:

And if cars lasted for 120 000 hours that manufacturing would dry up pretty darned quick. This "Green Sector" crap is great, but in economic terms because of their design they're no more than "booms". You ever been to a "boom" town?
Firstly, If the average car does about 150,000 thousand miles and averages 30 mph (figures off the top-of-my head, not substantiated), then their operating life-time is about 5000 hours of operation (MTBF of approx 1500 hours for serious faults?). I also take it that you have never heard of exports...

Large scale projects to improve infrastructure are significantly better in the long term, if people have something to go back to when they're done. It's not sustainable to keep building high speed rail lines back and forth across the country.
Hell of a strawman there - where have I expressed support for high-speed rail? As a personal point I'd rather see further investment for conventional rail and use them to consolidate freight transport. It would be far more sensible to remove heavy trucks from our motorways.

We were actually talking about the comparison between employment prospects between conventional fossil fuel projects and renewables. As I stated earlier, the 'granularity' of renewables (you need lots of smaller generators) means that job levels are likely to be relatively constant, rather than running in pulses to deal with large capital projects.
 
"The vast body of academics" are not specialists in paleoclimate reconstruction. They took the word of a few people who have destroyed their credibility with their behavior (withholding data) and their words, as revealed in the leaked emails. I have said before, I am not competent to judge the science. I can assess the behavior.

So based upon your behavior in this discussion thread, no one should account you any credibility here or in any other area of career, learning or assumed academic accomplishment?
 
Nonsense.



:rolleyes:

And if cars lasted for 120 000 hours that manufacturing would dry up pretty darned quick. This "Green Sector" crap is great, but in economic terms because of their design they're no more than "booms". You ever been to a "boom" town?

Large scale projects to improve infrastructure are significantly better in the long term, if people have something to go back to when they're done. It's not sustainable to keep building high speed rail lines back and forth across the country.

around here since years house owners are updating houses with new insulations , some even extremely thik, new windows. some sectors surely profit from this bussines. some are even new just for that, better insulations to increace energy efficiency.
 
...Hell of a strawman there - where have I expressed support for high-speed rail? As a personal point I'd rather see further investment for conventional rail and use them to consolidate freight transport. It would be far more sensible to remove heavy trucks from our motorways...

Fully agreed!!!

Though truck taxes contribute strongly to highway funding, they are also a primary source of highway decay (not to mention the twofer climate issues with diesel burners). Trains are easier to make climate friendly than long-haul trucks. Not that trains could fully replace trucks, they'd just eliminate the long-haul utilization of such, and without needing tha long haul capabilities, the short range trucks would be easier to electrify as well. To renovate and bring our nation's rail systems into the 21rst century (and this isn't talking about high speed systems) we'd have to invest a significant amount in repairing and replacing in basic infrastructure.
 
That's what the standard of living is, although it varies. Prior to 1850 is was stagnant although the record aren't exactly the greatest. The turning point varies from country to country as well, in the UK it's 1820, in India it's 1940.

You have claimed that quality of life is improving at a greater speed now than ever before. If we gave quality of life a value, say 50x in 1900 and 100x in 2000, your claim was that we're adding more x per year now than ever before. Back that up, because your above paragraph is nonsensical.

No it's not "bad enough already". People are living longer than they ever have with more food on their table and better education than any time in history. In this area we're reporting record crops. You've been mislead to believe it's worse than it is, that's what alarmists do. I was saying the same crap an 1995 and it wasn't true then either.

I pointed out that climate change is predicted to cause a higher frequency of chaotic weather, and you say that hurricanes etc are only going to get worse with rising population anyway. I respond by saying lets not add to that problem, and your response is to say that actually there is no problem? I get the impression you're having trouble following your own arguments here.

And if you screw with the economy you risk sending us into a world wide depression that will kill millions.

Explain to me how cutting $350bn out of the US military budget (an area that employs but does not produce), and putting it into any low carbon energy or research sector (which would both employ and produce) would cause a global depression and kill millions.

How about "It ain't broke so don't get in there with a monkey wrench a muck up the works"?

But it is broke. 97% of climate scientists agree.

It doesn't matter, you just shift emissions to others places in the world that are desperate for cheap energy so they can improve their standard of living. In the process you hurt your own economy.

No, if the western world starts using cleaner energy sources, that doesn't automatically mean that the developing world will use far more energy to make up for it. They might use more energy as a result of lower oil prices, but there are diplomatic options such as offering free technology developed by the suggested investment that could be used as an incentive to avoid this eventuality.

The climate models don't account for human ingenuity. There have been significant technological advancements in every decade since the 1900's and not a single model can account for that. It's not a matter of relying on technology rather it's foolish to so grossly underestimate it when we're trying to make such monumental changes to society and the environment.

You appear to be suggesting that we gamble with our children and our grandchildrens futures, in the hope that a technological advance will turn up and save us. Firstly, a large investment in cleaner technology would be far more likely to make this technological advance occur within a short enough timeframe, and secondly, even if this advance does occur without any extra investment how can we be sure it will be possible to actually implement it quickly enough to be able to deploy it as a global clean energy solution? If we wait 20 years to invent cold fusion, it could easily take another 10 to deploy a useful number of cold fusion plants around the world, and by then we've allowed 30 years of high emissions and could have passed the tipping point.

And if we're going by the logic of "wait and see", will we ever be satisfied with the conclusion? If/when we invent cold fusion, won't there still be people saying to wait another 20 years for it to become cheaper before we actually start using it? And then saying we should wait for the next miracle cure to come along, instead of bothering with this old technology, etc etc. And in the meantime, you do nothing and we go over 2 degrees.
 
That is neither a citation nor a reference to compelling evidence in support of your assertions.

He'd have stayed on the Titanic. So the ship is taking on water. You can't tell him with any certainty how many gallons per minute or how many watertight doors were closed or even give him a simulation that could predict sinking to the minute. Yes, the stern is down, but the bows are rising higher and higher! Have another cocktail.
 
The climate models don't account for human ingenuity. There have been significant technological advancements in every decade since the 1900's and not a single model can account for that. It's not a matter of relying on technology rather it's foolish to so grossly underestimate it when we're trying to make such monumental changes to society and the environment.

This argument is completely nonsensical. Of course the models don't account for technological advancements. The whole point of climate science is to figure out in what directions we need to make those advancements.
 
Largely a popularized fluff piece, no wonder you are having difficulties with proper interpretations and understandings.

Um no, nobody is having trouble with that piece. If you are just admit it and ask questions, no need for sour grapes. ;)

and you believe that it is impossible to reverse and/or compensate for human albedo change issues?

It's not a matter of belief, it's a simple fact. If you chop down a forest and cover the grasslands with buildings and roads the albedo will never be the same.
In your mind, those are the only options you perceive? Keep doing as we are doing or revert to the neolithic lifestyle? Seriously?

lol, who's reverting? There are billions of people on this planet who are living essentially like that with a similar "carbon footprint".
"Denying" those people the ability to industrialize by way of artificially raising the cost of energy so that your descendants might not suffer the catastrophe of your making is selfish and to be honest a bit classist if not racist.
 
It's not a matter of belief, it's a simple fact. If you chop down a forest and cover the grasslands with buildings and roads the albedo will never be the same.

yeah you can actually increase the Albedo :rolleyes:
 
I see you have resorted to your usual 'nonsence' hand-waving because you've lost a debating point and don't have a sensible response.

No, it's nonsense to dismiss something you haven't bothered to read as "ideology". You're being intellectually dishonest and pretty much just going with your own "ideology" anyways.

Firstly, If the average car does about 150,000 thousand miles and averages 30 mph (figures off the top-of-my head, not substantiated), then their operating life-time is about 5000 hours of operation (MTBF of approx 1500 hours for serious faults?). I also take it that you have never heard of exports...

Correct, 5000-6000 hours, compared to 120 000 hours of a turbine at 60%.
Hell of a strawman there - where have I expressed support for high-speed rail? As a personal point I'd rather see further investment for conventional rail and use them to consolidate freight transport. It would be far more sensible to remove heavy trucks from our motorways.

It's not a strawman. You can't keep building rail lines or other infrastructure projects indefinitely.
You brought it up by way of you link :boggled:

We were actually talking about the comparison between employment prospects between conventional fossil fuel projects and renewables. As I stated earlier, the 'granularity' of renewables (you need lots of smaller generators) means that job levels are likely to be relatively constant, rather than running in pulses to deal with large capital projects.

No. You don't know what you're talking about. Again, by design they require minimal maintenance, that's what makes them feasible, but barely. That's why they aren't heavily regulated like coal or gas or nuclear. If they were subject to the same regulations and required maintenance that traditional generating plants require they would be unfeasible.
 
This argument is completely nonsensical. Of course the models don't account for technological advancements.

Yep, that's what I said. You did to, so how is that nonsensical? :boggled:

The whole point of climate science is to figure out in what directions we need to make those advancements.

This is nonsensical. We don't need climate science to tell us that technology should go in the direction of reducing CO2 emissions.

The whole point of climate science is to figure out how the climate behaves and why. It's not meant to direct policy. Alarmists forget this.
 
Yep, that's what I said. You did to, so how is that nonsensical?

I didn't say that particular sentence was nonsensical. I said your argument (notice I quoted an entire paragraph, not just a single sentence) was nonsensical. And to suggest that we should disregard scientific models that don't take into account solutions to the problems the models themselves point out is certainly nonsensical.

This is nonsensical. We don't need climate science to tell us that technology should go in the direction of reducing CO2 emissions.

We don't? Then how was the conclusion that CO2 emissions should be reduced reached in the first place?

The whole point of climate science is to figure out how the climate behaves and why.

So then you contend it's a purely academic discipline?

It's not meant to direct policy. Alarmists forget this.

I never said anything about policy. I was talking about technology.
 
So based upon your behavior in this discussion thread, no one should account you any credibility here or in any other area of career, learning or assumed academic accomplishment?
That's up to whomsoever reads this (or anything else) to decide. Do people openly make a sensible case or do they hide behind anonymity and construct arguments out of inuendo? Do they make available the data they cite? Etc. A credential is something, but some credentials count for more than others, and no credential compensates for fraud.
 
And to suggest that we should disregard scientific models that don't take into account solutions to the problems the models themselves point out is certainly nonsensical.

I would say "disregard" is bordering on absurdity. It should be remembered that models are highly restricted, don't actually approximate what's actually happening and don't take into account significant feature including our ingenuity and technological advancements. That's an inarguable fact.

We don't? Then how was the conclusion that CO2 emissions should be reduced reached in the first place?

Fossil fuels are a finite resource and eventually they will run out. That's how we came to the conclusion we'd better start looking elsewhere.

So then you contend it's a purely academic discipline?

Science? Yes.

I never said anything about policy. I was talking about technology.

Science doesn't "direct" or "decide" it "reports".
 
This thread has long strayed from being a U.S. politics thread with a specific focus and has become virtually indistinguishable from the 'general' AGW discussion thread, which is a [Moderated] thread, so it is being closed. Please take the discussion to the [Moderated] thread here.
Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: LashL
 
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