Musings about MMOs & Real Life

[excaza]

I think this would be the right forum to get some insight on my random musings. This is a cross post from the forums I participate in as part of my online spaceships game (EVE), but I'm curious to hear what other people think about it.

This is a question I've been thinking about for a while, and I'm curious to see what people's thoughts are about the applicability of skills utilized by MMOs (and other similar genres) and how applicable they are to real life situations. But before I go into it, let me preface this with a little background on myself. I've been playing various MMOs on and off for approximately 9 years. The majority of my time with MMOs has been spent with turn-based games; I started with Utopia, moved to Earth:2025, then moved to AstroEmpires, and a couple months ago I picked up EVE.

I started thinking about this question many years ago when I was a junior in high school and filling out my application to the US Naval Academy. I was trying to think of leadership activities to put on my application (the lack of which was the reason for my rejection both years I applied) , and I was toying around with the idea of including my experience with Earth:2025 in my essay. Now most would say, "don't be silly, that's a video game," which, while true, I don't feel necessarily discredits it completely. For those who aren't aware, Earth:2025 was an online, turn-based game. There were multiple servers, but the ones I played focused on clans. I was part of one of the largest alliances (Illuminati X, if anyone played), and we usually had about 100-150 players over the course of the round (servers reset every couple months). While many of the players and alliances focused on the leaderboard, a good chunk of the clans focused solely on warring, which brings me to my reasoning for thinking about it in the first place. The first few resets I was in the clan I was fairly low level, but as I gained more experience I moved up the leadership chain (focusing mainly on diplomacy, which I eventually headed). As I went up the chain, my responsibilities grew, and I was helping new players learn how to run their countries, juggling diplomats, and working to mitigate any stupid mistakes our members were making. I was also one of the head warchat leaders; during wartime, we would have rotating warchats on mIRC where we would target enemy players and attempt to destroy their countries. These chats were very time-sensitive, and the chat leaders had to pick preliminary targets, get intelligence on them, figure out the attack composition of the friendly players, and then attack the final target and kill it before he got a chance to come online and stonewall the attacks, causing us to waste money and turns. This is quite a bit of information to handle, especially when warchats could involve 30-40 people, and sometimes more if it's a multi-clan effort. It was necessary for the leaders not to panic when targets came online, or if we started getting attacked in the middle of our run, and also to quickly act on the intelligence being gathered. The situation was similar in AstroEmpires (spreadsheets in space), except the numbers were greater and we made use of VOIP communications (vent/mumble) instead of mIRC. While it is a video game with only 0's and 1's on the line, I feel like some of these skills are still relevant to many real life applications. I didn't put it in my essay though.

I think this is even more pronounced for MMOs like EVE. In combat as a leadership position, not only do you have friendly and unfriendly fleet compositions to think about, but you've got grid positioning to account for, along with intelligence on any potential reinforcements coming in from off grid or out of system. This is a lot of information to digest, and you need to do it quickly without losing your cool. To me, this has a lot of correlation with traditional military leadership, even if it is just virtual spaceships. This doesn't even include the other areas of eve, even just the e-uni. Here in the uni we've got combat leadership, we've got diplomatic leadership, we've got educational leadership, plus we've got a bunch of people working logistics behind the scenes to make sure the wallet is full, the POS doesn't fall out of the sky, and many other things, for thousands of people.

So after that wall of gibberish, here's my question: What do you guys think about touching on experience with MMOs as part of a job application? I don't mean putting "I play games" on my resume, but referencing it in an interview. There are roles in EVE and other MMOs that are not trivial, and require skill and patience to do well.

Thoughts?

ETA: I know some of the jargon is a little game-specific, so if anyone needs clarification I'd be happy to oblige.

 

[ehcks]

Haha. I remember Earth:2025.

I was in Vengeance, a much much smaller clan. I quickly rose to War Minister. Even though the most people I remember in a war chat was 15, it still took some effort to organize a kill run. You need leadership skills to get people to listen to you; you need math to know who you can hit, how much to attack with, and the order for everyone else to follow up; and you need to be able to think quickly and know when the attacks have to be stopped, such as if they logged on or received aid.

I still wouldn't think of using it on an application, unless I already knew my employer or interviewer played the same game.

 

[Aepervius]

My only thought would be that being good in a MMO even with leaderboard, only means you are a good test subject for a skinner box. Not necesseraly for true leadership. There would need to be a study to prove the correlation (between MMO clan leadership and real team leadership).

 

[IDB87]

I think this is even more pronounced for MMOs like EVE. In combat as a leadership position

So, you basically called primaries?

 

[excaza]

I still wouldn't think of using it on an application, unless I already knew my employer or interviewer played the same game.

I agree with that, I was thinking more as part of the job interview if asked about leadership/management roles.

 

[excaza]

So, you basically called primaries?

har-har

 

[excaza]

My only thought would be that being good in a MMO even with leaderboard, only means you are a good test subject for a skinner box. Not necesseraly for true leadership. There would need to be a study to prove the correlation (between MMO clan leadership and real team leadership).

That's what I'm curious about, is there any correlation? As far as I'm aware, it hasn't been studied. But there's definitely similarities between tasks, so I think it would make for a very interesting study.

 

[Aepervius]

That's what I'm curious about, is there any correlation? As far as I'm aware, it hasn't been studied. But there's definitely similarities between tasks, so I think it would make for a very interesting study.

There are similarities, but so would rising 4 or 5 children (pun intended). If you look into details there are quite big disimilarties :
* in real team you mostly have to deal daily with your team, 8 h long. In MMO you deal with them when you feel like it even if a minimum is required, and you can /quit for a time as you wish (well obviously not in the middle of a raid...).
* real team : face tof ace non anonymous. MMO : anonymous via remote means, maybe with voice chat (maybe)
* real team : if you dislike somebody or performace are s-so, but not enough for termination , you have to deal with it. In MMO you can boot people if you dislike their name...
* real team have to deal with medium to very long term development of the personal. MMO you almost certainly don't in the term real team does.

So yes, I would like to see a study, because my gut feeling is that MMO leadership has few overlap with a real leadership .

 

[Antiquehunter]

You mean there is a life outside of MMOs? (And the JREF forums)?

 

[sadhatter]

I think this would be the right forum to get some insight on my random musings. This is a cross post from the forums I participate in as part of my online spaceships game (EVE), but I'm curious to hear what other people think about it.


Thoughts?

ETA: I know some of the jargon is a little game-specific, so if anyone needs clarification I'd be happy to oblige.

I read an article on this in my psych class last year, and i have to say, that i agreed with its gist, ( it will take me a bit to find it if i can online.), as a pen and paper rp'er i agree. To explain.

Rpg's do provide real life skills, but not in the way one thinks.

For example, as a d and d player, i have picked up many skills that benefit me in real life, to catagorize them:

As a player

I learn to know what others "like" to do and what others are "good" at doing, and have realized that there, in a lot of cases is not much overlap. Someone who really enjoys planning tactics, is not always the one best suited to do so.

Do not rely on boasts. If someone is boasting about finding a panecea for any situation, they are wrong.

You really can't fight city hall. If someone has enough power ( the dm) , your not going to be able to push your way through.

Not cheating has its advantages. People in power let rule breaking go on, if you do it too much in stupid situations you attract ire. If your going to break the rules, make darn sure its for a good cause and that you don't do it much.

As a DM ( guy who runs the game,)

" Everybody steals, some people just do it too much." There is no way to "stop " cheating, the best way to deal with it, is to make examples out of the worst cases. It creates less ire, and is effective propaganda, for lack of a better term.

Know peoples motivations. It is no nearly as important to understand what someone is doing, as it is, why, in general they do what they do. I could spend weeks trying to figure out why a player is stockpiling coppers and silverware, or look at how they have went about things in the past, and apply that to the situation.

Friends make the best enemies. If you want to really screw someone over, cause conflict between them and their Number 2.

Give leeway when consequences are high, be strict when they are low.

If you want something to get done safely, give an incentive to a group. If you want it done quickly give incentive to individuals.

Every group, no matter how informal, must have a respected charismatic leader. Democracy does not work very well in life or death situations.

And all these are not skills that one would think of as "in game." , many players will talk about their skill at tactics, or their knowledge of the perfect medieval weapon, gained from d and d. And this is bunk, these skills fail once they are brought into the real world, but none the less the game does provide people with real, useable skills.

 

[IDB87]

You mean there is a life outside of MMOs? (And the JREF forums)?

No.

 

[Mark6]

The dirty secret of MMORPG's is that they are unbelievably, fiendishly hard. Completing last level of Ultima Online or DDO easily requires at least as much work as becoming a chess master. Often-mentioned "eye-hand coordination" has nothing to do with it -- most MMORPG's require no special hand dexterity nor extra-fast reflexes. What they do require is ability to plan weeks and months ahead for a bewildering number of goals, sub-goals, and sub-sub-...-sub-goals, allocate resources for them, figure out which can be done alone and which require cooperation -- and with whom, -- contact people you need to cooperate with, find out out what they need from you in order to meet their long-term goals, organize group actions which often involve players in multiple time zones, actually execute raids.

To put it bluntly -- outside of business schools and military academies, MMORPG's are the best tool invented for learning executive skills. There is simply nothing else in life of a child or a teenager, or of many adults, where you need to do THAT much planning, goal setting, prioritizing, and resource allocation -- and cooperation with other people, who often have conflicting agendas.

When I do a job interview, if I have two otherwise identical candidates, one a chess master, the other has completed DDO Vault of Night on epic setting -- I will pick the latter. Both demonstrate equal amount of patience, dedication, and tactical skills, but the latter has heap of executive skills as well -- and demonstrable ability to work with other people. And I am a Russian, and had been playing chess since kindergarten.

 

[excaza]

That brings up another question. You, as a gamer, are aware of the potential logistical and management challenges in some parts of the MMO genre. I'd venture a guess to say that most of the people you're going to be interviewing with (aside from gaming companies) are going to have no idea about any of this. How does one go about communicating this relevant experience to someone who is not be aware of the merits?

 

[Mark6]

How does one go about communicating this relevant experience to someone who is not be aware of the merits?

You mean, how I would do it as a job-seeker as opposed to interviewer? I am afraid I have no answer to that. As an interviewer, I can simply ask. As a job-seeker, I am out of luck.

I am sure collecting butterflies also gives one SOME skills not obvious to non-butterfly-collectors. Likewise, they have no easy way to convey that fact at a job interview.

 

[Cuddles]

There are similarities, but so would rising 4 or 5 children (pun intended).

But there is an important difference. With children, there are basically no other choices - you have children, you raise them. If you do a bad job of it, they can't vote you out. In a game, leadership has a lot in common with real life leadership. You're dealing with people who have chosen to be there, and if you do a bad job, people can kick you out, or just leave.

* in real team you mostly have to deal daily with your team, 8 h long.

Not really. Most leadership actually involves relatively little interaction with underlings, especially at higher levels. I haven't seen my group leader for a week, and even when he is around I'll rarely talk to him more than once or twice in a day. My interaction with people in games actually tends to be a lot more than with people in my job.

In MMO you deal with them when you feel like it even if a minimum is required, and you can /quit for a time as you wish (well obviously not in the middle of a raid...).

Same with a job. And just as with a job, you may not be allowed back (although admittedly people will tend to be a bit less harsh about things like that).

* real team : face tof ace non anonymous. MMO : anonymous via remote means, maybe with voice chat (maybe)

Well, it's pretty much impossible to be serious about an MMO to the point where you're in a leadership position without having voice chat. Lack of face-to-face meetings is a difference, but it's hardly without parallels in the real world. I still haven't actually met several of the people we used to have regular video conferences with, and there are several people I've corresponded with only via email. Admittedly these are generally collaborations rather than actual leadership situations, but the point is this kind of thing is relevant in a real working environment.

* real team : if you dislike somebody or performace are s-so, but not enough for termination , you have to deal with it. In MMO you can boot people if you dislike their name...

You have a bit more leeway in games, but those are still exactly the same issues you need to deal with as a real life leader. If someone doesn't do their job well enough or annoys everyone else, you have to make decisions about how to deal with it. In addition, many places in the US are "at will", which as I understand it means your employer can fire you at any time for no reason, exactly as in a game.

* real team have to deal with medium to very long term development of the personal. MMO you almost certainly don't in the term real team does.

Sure you do. Check out Eve University, for example. Of course, it's not a perfect one-to-one match. Levelling is quite the same as career progression, better loot isn't the same as higher pay, pressing the right buttons in the right order to fly your spaceship better isn't quite the same as pressing the right buttons in the right ord... wait, scratch that last one.

So yes, I would like to see a study, because my gut feeling is that MMO leadership has few overlap with a real leadership.

I would be incredibly surprised if it was much different at all. Sure, there are various differences between the exact issues and the tools you have to deal with them. But things like confidence, assertiveness, organisation, diplomacy, conflict resolution, and so on, are all very much there. The shy person who doesn't like to speak on voice comms is unlikely to be a boisterous, outgoing leader when away from the computer, while the confident person who takes charge of a raid is likely to be that way the rest of the time as well.

Basically, leadership isn't about what you're leading or why, it's about being able to manage people and get them to do what you want and work together for a common goal. Just because you happen to be applying that to a game rather than something "real" doesn't mean the skills involved are any different.

 

[excaza]

Sure you do. Check out Eve University, for example.

You must be psychic.

 

[Antiquehunter]

Well - a few comments...

(I have played MMOs and their predecessors (badly) for a number of years - since the nascent days of the internet, with 300bps modems... I currently play WOW (badly))

If I were interviewing someone for a middle-management post, I personally would have a bit of prejudice, if they were using their MMO experience as their PRIMARY source of management experience / skills. It could make for an interesting / amusing commentary after we had discussed paper qualifications and past professional experience, but I would seriously be scratching my head if an interviewer were to seriously present skill in MMOs as their primary reason for hiring them.

Perhaps if they came into my office, saw a quirky toy/object on my desk, made the assumption that I may be a gamer, and used an MMO discussion as an ice-breaker - that would probably be very favorable in an interview. Would show observation skills, a degree of risk-taking, and an outgoing personality. But that is about it.

As far as the skills involved in my line of work correlating to MMOs... I have to tell you that WOW bewilders me to a degree, in particular the inscrutable jargon around the game, and the rather rabid dedication to the game. Also - I find it very rare, to find people willing to assist a noob such as myself with meaningful advice (playing with the JREF 'Empircal' Guild is much more fun than random groups, I assure you.) I find I get booted out of instances because people don't like my style of play (or my subpar DPS) - before any of them will ask a question that could indicate I have a lack of understanding / sophistication with the game. Rather than offer their expertise to make me a BETTER player, they just punt me for being a nuisance. Probably by some punky 14 y/o mouth-breather at that.

That sort of abrupt 'sink or swim' approach to me, does NOT indicate leadership - and would not be a desirable skillset in my industry. Someone with a dedication to 'capacity development' would be a much more desirable resource.

 

[Mark6]

I have to tell you that WOW bewilders me to a degree, in particular the inscrutable jargon around the game, and the rather rabid dedication to the game. Also - I find it very rare, to find people willing to assist a noob such as myself with meaningful advice (playing with the JREF 'Empircal' Guild is much more fun than random groups, I assure you.) I find I get booted out of instances because people don't like my style of play (or my subpar DPS) - before any of them will ask a question that could indicate I have a lack of understanding / sophistication with the game. Rather than offer their expertise to make me a BETTER player, they just punt me for being a nuisance. Probably by some punky 14 y/o mouth-breather at that.

All of which is part of the reason I do not play WoW. I find DDO community far more mature (in general -- not always). In part, because people playing DDO tend to be older.

 

[IDB87]

You must be psychic.

I used to suicide gank Uni miners and haulers.


Until I learned not to.

 

[Cuddles]

If I were interviewing someone for a middle-management post, I personally would have a bit of prejudice, if they were using their MMO experience as their PRIMARY source of management experience / skills. It could make for an interesting / amusing commentary after we had discussed paper qualifications and past professional experience, but I would seriously be scratching my head if an interviewer were to seriously present skill in MMOs as their primary reason for hiring them.

I don't see where anyone has suggested that. All that has been said is that leadership roles in MMOs actually seem fairly similar to any other leadership role, so perhaps they could be relevant to cite as experience. No-one has suggested throwing out everything else and only telling people you play games.

As far as the skills involved in my line of work correlating to MMOs... I have to tell you that WOW bewilders me to a degree, in particular the inscrutable jargon around the game, and the rather rabid dedication to the game. Also - I find it very rare, to find people willing to assist a noob such as myself with meaningful advice (playing with the JREF 'Empircal' Guild is much more fun than random groups, I assure you.) I find I get booted out of instances because people don't like my style of play (or my subpar DPS) - before any of them will ask a question that could indicate I have a lack of understanding / sophistication with the game. Rather than offer their expertise to make me a BETTER player, they just punt me for being a nuisance. Probably by some punky 14 y/o mouth-breather at that.

That sort of abrupt 'sink or swim' approach to me, does NOT indicate leadership - and would not be a desirable skillset in my industry. Someone with a dedication to 'capacity development' would be a much more desirable resource.

It seems you're just proving the point here. You don't like playing with random people who don't show respect, but you find it much better playing in a set group with better communication and leadership. If a person can show that they are able to create a helpful, friendly environment within a generally unhelpful, anarchic world, why should that not be a relevant point when considering them for other leadership roles?

It's also worth bearing in mind that there's probably a good reason that this came up in relation to Eve rather than WoW. Eve is much more of a sandbox world with almost everything that happens being player driven. Organisation and leadership within player groups, and diplomacy and politics between them, are therefore much more important than most MMOs.