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Did Jesus really exist?

amb

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amb
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Dec 11, 2007
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Many people assume that Jesus really existed and was a historical figure, even if they don't accept the Christian claim that he was the son of God.
But is this assumption really justified?
Is there any reason to think that the gospel stories are about a real person rather than a collection of legends?

By studying most of non-biblical sources, most of the references are of Christians, not the man himself, which must cast some doubt in the existence of a HISTORICAL Jesus the man, let alone the Son of God.
Remove Jesus from the equation and Christianity has no foundation, and therefore no claims of tax free status as a religion.

~Angelo~
 
ambnp said:
Many people assume that Jesus really existed and was a historical figure, even if they don't accept the Christian claim that he was the son of God.
But is this assumption really justified?
Is there any reason to think that the gospel stories are about a real person rather than a collection of legends?

By studying most of non-biblical sources, most of the references are of Christians, not the man himself,
Click to expand...

These non-Christian sources mentioned Christ.

* 1.3.1 Josephus
* 1.3.2 Tacitus
* 1.3.3 Suetonius

Josephus mentioned Him twice. There is some debate about one mentioning but a second mentioning of Christ as the brother{cousin} of James the Just is considered authentic.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historicity_of_Jesus#Earliest_known_sources.


Also you have to wonder what caused these events in the first century:

* Saint Stephen, Protomartyr, was stoned c. 35 A.D.
* James the Great (Son of Zebedee) was beheaded in 44 A.D.
* Philip the Apostle was crucified in 54 A.D.
* Matthew the Evangelist killed by a halberd in 60 A.D.
* James the Just, beaten to death by a club after being crucified and stoned.
* Matthias was stoned and beheaded.
* Saint Andrew, St. Peter's brother, was crucified.
* Mark was beaten to death.
* Saint Peter, crucified upside-down.
* Apostle Paul, beheaded in Rome.
* Saint Jude was crucified.
* Saint Bartholomew was crucified.
* Thomas the Apostle was killed by a spear.
* Luke the Evangelist was hanged.
* Simon the Zealot was crucified in 74 A.D.

(Note: John the Evangelist according to legend was cooked in boiling hot oil but survived. He was the only one of the original twelve Apostles who was not martyred).


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_martyrs
 
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By studying most of non-biblical sources, most of the references are of Christians, not the man himself, which must cast some doubt in the existence of a HISTORICAL Jesus the man, let alone the Son of God.
Remove Jesus from the equation and Christianity has no foundation, and therefore no claims of tax free status as a religion.

Dream on. You can get a tax free religious status if you worship a Department store manniken.
 
Cainkane1 said:
By studying most of non-biblical sources, most of the references are of Christians, not the man himself, which must cast some doubt in the existence of a HISTORICAL Jesus the man, let alone the Son of God.
Remove Jesus from the equation and Christianity has no foundation, and therefore no claims of tax free status as a religion.

Dream on. You can get a tax free religious status if you worship a Department store manniken.
Click to expand...

:eye-poppi I can? Whoohoo!

(she worships me too!)
 
ambnp said:
Many people assume that Jesus really existed and was a historical figure, even if they don't accept the Christian claim that he was the son of God.
But is this assumption really justified?
Is there any reason to think that the gospel stories are about a real person rather than a collection of legends?

By studying most of non-biblical sources, most of the references are of Christians, not the man himself, which must cast some doubt in the existence of a HISTORICAL Jesus the man, let alone the Son of God.
Remove Jesus from the equation and Christianity has no foundation, and therefore no claims of tax free status as a religion.

~Angelo~
Click to expand...

I'm far from an expert on the subject, but for what it's worth, I suspect there was a man, likely named Jesus, that is the foundation of the Christ legends. I don't believe he was the son of god though.

The supporting evidence is slim. Some have made a good argument for the non-existence of Jesus. I'm not convinced he didn't exist though.
 
Lately I am leaning toward the idea that there probably was an historical Apocalyptic rabbi who was executed by Roman authority, but that he bore no resemblance to the fictional character that he inspired. And it seems that there were probably other individuals who's legends and accounts were integrated into the character as well. I think that Jesus was a bit like King Arthur: Probably very loosely based on a real individual, but none the less a wholly fictional character.
 
What do you mean by "Jesus"?

If you mean some rabbi wandering around the middle east at about the time of 30 CE, then yeah, sure. If you mean the dude described in the bible? Heck no. If Jesus existed, then the resemblence between him and the figure described in the bible is minimal, and probably only in agreement in the least significant of details.

I have made the analogy many times, that the "historical Jesus" is probably no more true than the "historical Dorothy" from the Wizard of Oz. In fact, there was a little girl who lived in Kansas (L Frank Baum's niece) who, in fact, had an Aunt "M" (Maude Gauge Baum). That doesn't mean, however, that Dorothy from the Wizard of Oz really "existed." Similarly, random references to someone named Jesus who bears only a passing resemblence to the person described in the bible does not mean that Jesus of the Bible existed, either.

So

"Was there a person Jesus upon whom the Biblical stories were based?" Probably
"Was there a person Dorothy upon whom the Wizard of Oz was based?" Definately yes

What is the significance of either? None.

ETA: What Foster Zygote said.
 
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It seems to me that if the Bible were produced today, it would be a mini-series on FOX with the tag line "based on a true story".
 
tsg said:
It seems to me that if the Bible were produced today, it would be a mini-series on FOX with the tag line "based on a true story".
Click to expand...

And have to fight to not get the dreaded TV-MA (VLS) rating....


I have to ask, how many of these threads do we have to have at one time?
 
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DOC said:
Also you have to wonder what caused these events in the first century:

* Saint Stephen, Protomartyr, was stoned c. 35 A.D.
* James the Great (Son of Zebedee) was beheaded in 44 A.D.
* Philip the Apostle was crucified in 54 A.D.
* Matthew the Evangelist killed by a halberd in 60 A.D.
[... and so on ...]
Click to expand...
That just raises further questions about how well documented those events are. Clicking through a few of the links in the article you provided leads to a ton of controversy and not much credible evidence about each of those supposed martyrs.
 
I have to ask, how many of these threads do we have to have at one time?
Click to expand...

As many as it takes...

What I find intriguing is that a Christian would even consider the possibility that the Jesus portrayed in the NT didn't exist, or why an atheist would think that it matters .
 
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RecoveringYuppy said:
That just raises further questions about how well documented those events are. Clicking through a few of the links in the article you provided leads to a ton of controversy and not much credible evidence about each of those supposed martyrs.
Click to expand...
Wait. Are you trying to convince us that DOC posted claims that have scant backing, questionable sources and no real basis in reality? I'm shocked!



No, not shocked...oh, what's that word? The one that means "not shocked"? Um..."blasée"?
 
Diogenes said:
As many as it takes...

What I find intriguing is that a Christian would even consider the possibility that the Jesus portrayed in the NT didn't exist, or why an atheist would think that it matters .
Click to expand...

It matters only as far as the world's largest collective of faiths are based on writings about a guy. It would be nice to know a few existential pieces of information about him.

In the long run, though, it doesn't matter. Not after 2,000 years.
 
DOC said:
Also you have to wonder what caused these events in the first century:...
Click to expand...

No, I wonder how those are supposedly proofs of Jesus' existence.

As to what caused the events, my opinion is: superstition and bigotry. Same then as it is now in the Biblical lands.
 
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kmortis said:
Wait. Are you trying to convince us that DOC posted claims that have scant backing, questionable sources and no real basis in reality? I'm shocked!



No, not shocked...oh, what's that word? The one that means "not shocked"? Um..."blasée"?
Click to expand...

The word you are looking for is "whelmed". In other words, it was exactly what you expected.

But then, I'm on a crusade to get that word into normal usage.
 
That would make me very gruntled, illusioned and heartened.

Appointed, even.
 
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