Did Jesus really exist?

[DOC]

Mark finishes his gospel with the statement that the women went to the tomb only to find it empty. That's it. The body could have been stolen as the tradition states, or the women could have gone to the wrong tomb. The legend of christ raising from the dead started from there.

Here is a site by Josh McDowell entitled "Evidence for the Resurrection":

http://www.leaderu.com/everystudent/easter/articles/josh2.html

 

[JoeEllison]

It amazes me how history can be changed by a supposed fraud. I just don't see it. There's not enough motivation to keep a lie like that going, UNLESS ... something big really happened, and continued happening.

That's a pretty obviously ridiculous position there. "History" has been filled with mythologies that have "changed the world". Are they ALL true, or just the one you agree with?

 

[JoeEllison]

Here is a site by Josh McDowell entitled "Evidence for the Resurrection":

http://www.leaderu.com/everystudent/easter/articles/josh2.html

So, zero evidence. Awesome. When are you going to accept your atheism?

 

[modecom]

Surely, only an almighty ghost would be leaving his image around in such "interesting" ways...

Do you mean something like this image of the lord himself?

 

[DOC]

Originally Posted by DOC
Here is a site by Josh McDowell entitled "Evidence for the Resurrection":

http://www.leaderu.com/everystudent/...les/josh2.html

So, zero evidence. Awesome. When are you going to accept your atheism?

How about most of Europe, North America, and South America, just had national holidays celebrating the birth of a Jew who died at age 33, 2000 years ago. How's that for evidence.

 

[tsg]

How about most of Europe, North America, and South America, just had national holidays celebrating the birth of a Jew who died at age 33, 2000 years ago. How's that for evidence.

Pretty poor. It's called "argument from popularity", but I'm sure you knew that already.

 

[DOC]

It's called "argument from popularity"...

Popularity (and faith), isn't that why most of the people in these threads believe the Big Bang occurred. I doubt many people in here have witnessed galaxies moving away from each other.

 

[tsg]

Popularity, isn't that why most of the people in these threads believe the Big Bang occurred. I doubt many people in here have witnessed galaxies moving away from each other.

Tu Quoque. And a pretty poor one at that.

 

[MG1962]

I dont think there is much issue with the existence of Jesus. The early Church suffered a schism brought on between those who knew Jesus during his life (James etc) And Paul (who converted after the fact)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Christians

Here is a general outline of who they were, and what they believed. The the invasion and recaputre of the city by the Romans in 135AD, all but saw the sect wiped out, and much of their written tradittion to that point destroyed.

 

[ImaginalDisc]

I dont think there is much issue with the existence of Jesus. The early Church suffered a schism brought on between those who knew Jesus during his life (James etc) And Paul (who converted after the fact)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Christians

Here is a general outline of who they were, and what they believed. The the invasion and recaputre of the city by the Romans in 135AD, all but saw the sect wiped out, and much of their written tradittion to that point destroyed.

Sorry, your only sources are the Pauline letters, Acts, and an Anti-Gnostic tract from a a hundred and twenty years after the Pauline letters.

 

[MG1962]

Sorry, your only sources are the Pauline letters, Acts, and an Anti-Gnostic tract from a a hundred and twenty years after the Pauline letters.

And if the city had not been sacked in 135AD we possibly would have a lot more information from that side of the arguement. I believe the fact the schism existed is a strong indicator for the historic Jesus.

If Jesus is indeed a myth, it seems odd to make up a story about conflict in the early Church. If you are planning to create a religion you want to export to the world - Wouldn't there be a temptation to make it all smooth sailing from a scripture point of view

 

[ImaginalDisc]

And if the city had not been sacked in 135AD we possibly would have a lot more information from that side of the arguement. I believe the fact the schism existed is a strong indicator for the historic Jesus.

If Jesus is indeed a myth, it seems odd to make up a story about conflict in the early Church. If you are planning to create a religion you want to export to the world - Wouldn't there be a temptation to make it all smooth sailing from a scripture point of view

Oh, I knew someone would say that. Gee, what about all the Christians outside the city? What about all the other historians, pagan and Christian alike? Why does no one mention any apostles of Jesus who kew him during his life until a generation after he was supposed to have lived?

 

[MG1962]

Oh, I knew someone would say that. Gee, what about all the Christians outside the city? What about all the other historians, pagan and Christian alike? Why does no one mention any apostles of Jesus who kew him during his life until a generation after he was supposed to have lived?

Thats what the schism was about. Perhaps further study of the Dead Sea scrolls may offer more information

 

[ImaginalDisc]

Thats what the schism was about. Perhaps further study of the Dead Sea scrolls may offer more information

The mutally contradictory gospels don't speak to the truth of the them, it simply peaks to the wide dispersal of Christian communities, geographically seperated, each with one or two peices of holy writ and most of them using Mark for notes. Jesus makes a curious religious leader, if real, in that neither he nor any of his followers wrote anything down.

 

[JoeEllison]

How about most of Europe, North America, and South America, just had national holidays celebrating the birth of a Jew who died at age 33, 2000 years ago. How's that for evidence.

Don't you realize by now that you cannot claim that as evidence, for multiple reasons? The one you should be most worried about is that, worldwide, the majority disagrees with you. So, it is just dumb from a perfectly practical standpoint for you to make that argument.

 

[kmortis]

The mutally contradictory gospels don't speak to the truth of the them, it simply peaks to the wide dispersal of Christian communities, geographically seperated, each with one or two peices of holy writ and most of them using Mark for notes. Jesus makes a curious religious leader, if real, in that neither he nor any of his followers wrote anything down.

Yeah, cause it's reasonable to assume that the illiterate would write things down. I guess this means that Zoroaster didn't exist too, huh? Or that the Roman pagan religions didn't exist because they didn't write anything down until much later, right?

That Jesus et alia didn't write anything down isn't exceptional. It's expected. He was an itinerant preacher in a backwater providence of the Roman Empire. Literacy wasn't the norm for his class.

 

[MG1962]

The mutally contradictory gospels don't speak to the truth of the them, it simply peaks to the wide dispersal of Christian communities, geographically seperated, each with one or two peices of holy writ and most of them using Mark for notes. Jesus makes a curious religious leader, if real, in that neither he nor any of his followers wrote anything down.

We cant say that for an absolute fact - The lack of documents after this amount of time does not mean they never existed. And who knows, another Dead Sea Scroll like discovery may well await us.

Sure, trying to defend a negative is a weak arguement, but given the level of destruction when Haidran attacked Jeruslem, there is potential that the documents did exist, and were destroyed

The situation is not that unusual - There are only something like 4 copies of the Magna Carta still in existence, and thats less than a 1000 years ago. Potentially there may have even been external writings held in the Library of Alexandria. Which was burned three times after the time of Christ.

 

[ImaginalDisc]

Yeah, cause it's reasonable to assume that the illiterate would write things down.

What precisely makes you think that Jesus and his twelve apostles were illiterate? Why would Jesus go unremarked on despite cuasing a huge fuss in Jerusalem, traveling everywehre with followers at his heels, and being tried by the governor of the province? Not only does he fail to write a damn thing, his followers, the "mulitudes" fail to write anything either, or even impress any chronicler, traveler, poet, politician, solider, or merchant enough to mention them for a generation.

I guess this means that Zoroaster didn't exist too, huh? Or that the Roman pagan religions didn't exist because they didn't write anything down until much later, right?

As for the pagan religions, Dionysus is certainly not historical. The historicity of Zoroaster is likewise doubtful. Are you making any claims that Hercules, or Mithra were real?

That Jesus et alia didn't write anything down isn't exceptional. It's expected. He was an itinerant preacher in a backwater providence of the Roman Empire. Literacy wasn't the norm for his class.

He was learned enough to astound the religous leaders of his town when he was a boy, remember? As for his "class" we know precious little about that. Either he was merely a tradesman for eighteen years, or he learned the oral and scriptural tradition of his people. Or, he turned into a trout for eighteen years. We don't know what learning he was supposed to have had because the four cannonical Gospels make no mention of eighteen years of his life.

I have no doubt Mohammed was an historical figure, despite doubting some claims about him. He is well documented by sources other than his followers. I have little doubt Apollonius of Tyana existed, though he almost certainly didn't travel to India, and he clearly couldn't walk through walls. The evidence for Jesus's existence is utterly absent. The earliest refernces to Jesus either fail to discuss his life at all, or discuss him as having existed at least a generation earlier. There is no contemporary mention of him anywhere by anyone.

 

[Foster Zygote]

The martyrdom of 10 of the 11 apostles and others, mentioned in post # 2 of this thread:

You've presented this logical fallacy before. Then, I asked you a question that you ignored, and will likely ignore now: What of all the martyrs to other religions?

 

[kmortis]

We cant say that for an absolute fact - The lack of documents after this amount of time does not mean they never existed. And who knows, another Dead Sea Scroll like discovery may well await us.

Sure, trying to defend a negative is a weak arguement, but given the level of destruction when Haidran attacked Jeruslem, there is potential that the documents did exist, and were destroyed

The situation is not that unusual - There are only something like 4 copies of the Magna Carta still in existence, and thats less than a 1000 years ago. Potentially there may have even been external writings held in the Library of Alexandria. Which was burned three times after the time of Christ.

And, it's not just acts of violence that destroys documents. Poor storage and other environmental factors really play havoc on them. Why do you think they keep the Declaration of Independence in the environmentally sealed box?