[Moderated]The Holocaust never happened!

[achtung circus]

Interesting

Please explain how these ovens could fit 200 bodies at a time.

that you chose a picture of the ovens in Krema 1 which killed approximately 10,000 rather than a picture of the ovens of, say, Krema 2 where the industrial cremation took place.

Not unexpected, but interesting.

I do not have enough posts yet to include the images but they are readily available by Googling Krema 2 crematorium.

 

[JEROME DA GNOME]

By using the other forty-seven ovens that aren't pictured in that photograph, and putting them into the ovens in small groups of four or so as the documented procedures, design papers, and related patent applications demanded (and as the surviving workers testify was the procedure). Of course, no modern funeary crematorium would group corpses together, but that was not only standard practice for the Nazi's, but a key aspect of the design to allow for greater throughput.

Fifty ovens, four people per oven, yields 200 cremations at a time. Run the ovens for 3 hours per group, 24 hours per day, and you get a capacity of about 1600 bodies per day, in-line with the design specifications.

What you are stating here does not correlate with these statements:

According to a book entitled "Auschwitz" which I purchased at the camp, the three ovens had a capacity of 340 bodies in a 24 hour period, less than half the capacity of the gas chamber, which was 600 to 800 people. The gas chamber originally had no ventilation system, so it took some time to air out the room between gassings.

http://www.scrapbookpages.com/Poland/Auschwitz/Auschwitz08B.html

The blueprints for the crematorium at Auschwitz I show that there were three ovens when the crematorium was in operation.

The ovens were deep enough to hold two bodies, placed end to end. A third oven was installed at the end of 1941. Krema I was in operation until July 1943.

Do you have evidence that these statements are incorrect?

The photo above shows one of the two ovens which were reconstructed by the Soviet Union in 1947 when the main camp was turned into the Auschwitz Museum.

WTF???

 

[SDC]

I was following some of the links that Ktesibios put at the bottom of his latest post. Idly clicking through to a reference of a Sonderkommando who worked at Auschwitz by the name of Henryk Tauber. I can't post links but google him and click the first link.

It's a translation of his experiences from the transport from the warsaw ghetto to his eventual escape. It's not going to persuade Magz or Kageki but i thought it was worth mentioning for a few reasons.

1 it mentions an isolated case of an individual being burned alive
2 it talks about burning bodies outside in the summer months when the trains were coming so often they outstripped the capacity of the crematoria.
3 it's interesting how the historian Pressac simply won't accept anything that tauber didnt see first hand (for example the gassing of 200 SonderKommando) and how he corrects even the smallest errors unfailingly.
4 there is even a mention of 4 million Jewish deaths at Auschwitz towards the end which Pressac dismisses as propaganda.


its not an easy read.

The "4 mln" at Auschwitz alone, if I recall correctly, came out of the claims of the Polish communist government, while they were trying to claim Auschwitz (Oswiecim in Polish) as a primarily Polish and communist place of martyrdom. Serious scholarly estimates are in the 1.5 mln range for the whole camp complex, about 90% Jews.

And yes, JdG, the Auschwitz site was made into a museum postwar. Serious scholarship is done and I think there are books available for purchase there. Go visit. Danuta Czech's (curiously, the spelling "Czech" in English for the people of the Czech Republic is borrowed from the Polish -- go figure) book on the basics of Auschwitz is available in several languages, including at least one you seem to have some familiarity with. English.

Go read. You don't seem as hopeless as the other deniers. Read, listen, learn. But go.

 

[drkitten]

What you are stating here does not correlate with these statements:

Sure it does.

The blueprints for the crematorium at Auschwitz I show that there were three ovens when the crematorium was in operation.

If there was something designated "Auschwitz I," might there also have been something designated "Auschwitz II"? (Answer, yes, of course there was.) And a statement about how many ovens there were at Auschwitz I says nothing about how many there were in the entire complex, beyond the fact that there were at least three. Similarly, the mention of Krema I ("Krema I was in operation until July 1943.") suggests that there might have been Krema II or even more. Auschwitz II (aka Birkenau) had nearly fifty larger-scale ovens, organized as Kremas II-V.


From here

Crematoria II and III were T-shaped brick buildings which were mirror images. Both are now nothing but ruins; they were blown up by the fleeing Nazis on Jan. 20, 1945, two days after the camp was abandoned. Today, these buildings are commonly known by their German name: Krema II and Krema III.

On the ground floor of both buildings were 5 large ovens where the bodies were cremated after being brought up on an elevator. Each of the ovens had 3 openings, called muffles or retorts, which means that there were actually 15 ovens which could each handle up to 3 bodies at a time.

... and of course, there were further ovens (16 more) in Kremas IV and V.

Do you have evidence that these statements are incorrect?

No more incorrect than is the observation that I have about 100 books on my office shelves. However, if you draw from this the inference that I own no more than 100 books, or that I have read no more than 100 books, your inference is incorrect. I simply don't keep the rest of my library in my office, and of course there are books I have read that I don't own at all.

 

[drkitten]

I just realized that JDG is partially contradicted out of his own quotations.

it takes 3 to 4 hours to cremate the human body.

According to a book entitled "Auschwitz" which I purchased at the camp, the three ovens had a capacity of 340 bodies in a 24 hour period,

The ovens were deep enough to hold two bodies, placed end to end.

Doing the math, this suggests a max of 8 duty cycles per 24 hour period per oven (since it takes 3 hrs per cremation), or 24 duty cycles total. Each oven was long enough for two bodies, so that would make 48 bodies in twenty-four hours.

That's not even 20% of the published capacity (that Jerome cited) of 340 bodies at Krema I per twenty-four hours.

Either the duty cycle was much shorter than 3 hours (of which I am confident), or the Germans did not simply lay two corposes "end to end" but piled them in in larger groups (which, given how wasted many of the bodies were, would have been easy to do). Either way, the individual numbers don't "play nice" with each other, suggesting that this approach of cherry-picking numbers may not be the best way to establish capacity.

 

[Darth Rotor]

Hitler told Chamberlain he would not start a war on Poland. He lied.

He was a coward also

I am going to nitpick here, funk, and point out to you that "coward" probably isn't a good epithet for Adoplh.

You don't tend to win two Iron Crosses on the Western Front, as courier/runner, if you are a coward.

Hitler served in France and Belgium as a runner for the 16th Bavarian Reserve Regiment (called Regiment List after its first commander), which exposed him to enemy fire.

Hitler was twice decorated for bravery. He received the Iron Cross, Second Class, in 1914 and the Iron Cross, First Class, in 1918, an honour rarely given to a Gefreiter.

However, because the regimental staff thought Hitler lacked leadership skills, he was never promoted to Unteroffizier

Sadly for an awful lot of people, what he saw on the Western Front didn't convince him that starting that kind of a mess again was a bad idea.

Tragic, really.

DR

 

[leftysergeant]

Kageki.

What do you make of the Balfour Declaration and the Transfer Agreement?

The Transfer Agreement applies to a movement of 50000 Jews out of Germany and to Palestine in 1933. It was apparently a negotiation between Zionists and the German authorities and written up in a book by Edwin Black. It looks both well researched and controversial (Black's work not Kageki's). Kageki - I cant find any mention in the stuff online that these escapees helped in the design of the holocaust or indeed knew the full horror of what was awaiting those not lucky enough to escape 1933 germany. How does this fit into the plan?

There was a major obstacle to actually transferring the Jews of Germany to Palestine, in that the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem was kind of opposed to the whole idea, and a staunch supporter of the Nazis, and thus a valuable man to the over-all Nazi plans for the Middle East as a source of oil.

It may have actually been a sham to keep the Jews from panicing as the round-ups began, making it possible to maintain the illusion of the death camps as mere re-location centers.

 

[MaGZ]

I am going to nitpick here, funk, and point out to you that "coward" probably isn't a good epithet for Adoplh.

You don't tend to win two Iron Crosses on the Western Front, as courier/runner, if you are a coward.

Sadly for an awful lot of people, what he saw on the Western Front didn't convince him that starting that kind of a mess again was a bad idea.

Tragic, really.

DR

Hitler wanted to avoid the type of trench warfare mess of WW I. That is why he developed the concept of blitzkrieg. Hitler may not have been a great military tactician on every level but the invasion of France and the Low countries was largely successful due to his military genius.

 

[SpitfireIX]

Hitler wanted to avoid the type of trench warfare mess of WW I. That is why he developed the concept of blitzkrieg. Hitler may not have been a great military tactician on every level but the invasion of France and the Low countries was largely successful due to his military genius.

Oh, please. The German Army had been developing Blitzkrieg tactics since the end of World War I. And the plan for the French campaign was devised by Erich von Manstein^WP and Heinz Guderian^WP; Hitler only approved it because it promised a relatively swift and cheap victory. See here and here. The history of World War II is replete with examples of Hitler's military ignorance; the fact that his decisions occasionally worked out well in no way qualifes him as a "military genius."

 

[westprog]

Oh, please. The German Army had been developing Blitzkrieg tactics since the end of World War I. And the plan for the French campaign was devised by Erich von Manstein^WP and Heinz Guderian^WP; Hitler only approved it because it promised a relatively swift and cheap victory. See here and here. The history of World War II is replete with examples of Hitler's military ignorance; the fact that his decisions occasionally worked out well in no way qualifes him as a "military genius."

Plans to assassinate Hitler were shelved midwar when the Allies realised how much military assistance he was giving them. A lazy, stupid man with an absurd over-estimate of his own military capacity. Not many post war German autobiographies praising his contribution.

 

[Sword_Of_Truth]

Plans to assassinate Hitler were shelved midwar when the Allies realised how much military assistance he was giving them. A lazy, stupid man with an absurd over-estimate of his own military capacity. Not many post war German autobiographies praising his contribution.

It wouldn't be his military acumen drawing all the attention if autobiographies were being written about him in the post-war period.

 

[SpitfireIX]

It wouldn't be his military acumen drawing all the attention if autobiographies were being written about him in the post-war period.

When I was taking a course called Modern Germany, I saw a copy of the Weekly World News with the headline "HITLER IS ALIVE: Hundred Year Old Nazi Dictator Found Alive in South America." Of course I bought it, and I showed it to my professor. He commented, "Yes, I saw that. Great scoop."

I cut out the article and kept it posted on my door for the rest of the school year.

 

[funk de fino]

I am going to nitpick here, funk, and point out to you that "coward" probably isn't a good epithet for Adoplh.

You don't tend to win two Iron Crosses on the Western Front, as courier/runner, if you are a coward.

Sadly for an awful lot of people, what he saw on the Western Front didn't convince him that starting that kind of a mess again was a bad idea.

Tragic, really.

DR

Nitpick all you want, thats what we are here for. I served in two conflicts and got three medals but I am scared of hypodermic needles. My dentist thinks I am a coward and I suppose in one way I am.

For nothing other than what happened at the end, he was a coward in my eyes. He took the cowards way out. Pathetic really. He died a coward if that is a more palatable description.

 

[Grayce]

I don't see why we have to just deny the Holocaust. Why not go for the biggie: WW2 never happened!

Prove that Hitler was around and supposedly led some political movement called "the Nazis" into war for world domination. And don't come dragging with unreliable references like facts, actual documents from the time or witnesses. They're all lies.

 

[Architect]

I don't see why we have to just deny the Holocaust. Why not go for the biggie: WW2 never happened!

Yea, Swedish history books don't even mention any of the battles your army took part in! And there's no sign of any bomb damaged buildings or battle sites anywhere in the country!!

 

[achtung circus]

I don't see why we have to just deny the Holocaust. Why not go for the biggie: WW2 never happened!

Prove that Hitler was around and supposedly led some political movement called "the Nazis" into war for world domination. And don't come dragging with unreliable references like facts, actual documents from the time or witnesses. They're all lies.

Documents are forgeries, witnesses were tortured.

Sheesh.

 

[Gravy]

Please explain how these ovens could fit 200 bodies at a time.

http://www.scrapbookpages.com/AuschwitzScrapbook/2005Photos/OvenFromDoor.jpg

You are either being deliberately dishonest, or you research skills are so poor that you could not find out that there were more two crematorium ovens at Auschwitz.

Which is it? I'm guessing the former, since evidence had already been posted here about the extent and activity of the Krema, such as these statistics I posted:

In October 7, 1944, the strength of the sonderkommando (referred to as "heizer" = stoker/burner, in the official SS documents), was:

Krema II: day shift 84, night shift 85.
Krema III: day shift 84, night shift 85.
Krema IV: day shift 84, night shift 85.
Krema V: day shift 72, night shift 84.

That is, 663 altogether.

APMO, D-AuII-3a/1, Inventory No. 29723. See Czech, "Auschwitz Chronicle 1939-1945". p. 724. See also Document on display in the "Jewish Martyrdom" exhibit in Auschwitz Main Camp, listing 661 stokers in October 3, 1944.

So, Jerome, are you being dishonest, or are you really incapable of doing the most basic research?

 

[leftysergeant]

Hitler wanted to avoid the type of trench warfare mess of WW I. That is why he developed the concept of blitzkrieg. Hitler may not have been a great military tactician on every level but the invasion of France and the Low countries was largely successful due to his military genius.

The victory in France was more a result of the skill and the military virtue of the typical German soldier. Guderian had more to do with that than did Hitler. The Army actually disliked him immensely.

Hitler's military accumen is more clearly reflected in his decision to let the Luftwaffe finish off the Anglo-French forces at Dunkirk, his decision to shelve Opereration Seeloewe to go invade Russia, and his leaving Rommel twiddling his thumbs on the Pas de Calais waiting for the "real invasion."

The only thing he knew how to do well was to use people's hatred of one another to advance his own ends.

In that sense, the Holocaust seems logical, as irrational as it might seem to a non-sociopathic person. Everything about it is consistant with the designs of such a monster.

 

[JEROME DA GNOME]

You are either being deliberately dishonest, or you research skills are so poor that you could not find out that there were more two crematorium ovens at Auschwitz.

Which is it? I'm guessing the former, since evidence had already been posted here about the extent and activity of the Krema, such as these statistics I posted:



So, Jerome, are you being dishonest, or are you really incapable of doing the most basic research?

Do you have a link?

The proper thing to do would be to link to what you are quoting.

So, Gravy, are you being disrespectful to all the readers of your post intentionally, or are you simply unaware of common forum etiquette?

 

[Corsair 115]

The victory in France was more a result of the skill and the military virtue of the typical German soldier.

Also helpful was an Allied military leadership that was slow to react to the developing situation.

Hitler's military accumen is more clearly reflected in his decision to let the Luftwaffe finish off the Anglo-French forces at Dunkirk, his decision to shelve Opereration Seeloewe to go invade Russia, and his leaving Rommel twiddling his thumbs on the Pas de Calais waiting for the "real invasion."

You could add his insistence on the V-1 and V-2 weapons programs, which consumed enormous amounts of resources for almost no military gain whatsoever; his insistence on revenge for the bombing of German cities rather than thinking in terms of defending against such attacks; and refusing to allow a withdrawal from Stalingrad, just to name a few more examples.