Slobbering "Citizens" on the Land.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Okay, you may have heard of "sovereign citizens on the land". If not, look 'em up.

 

[kookbreaker]

Yes. We have a number of threads about them in the Conspiracy section.

 

[Mojo]

https://internationalskeptics.com/forums/index.php?tags/sovereign-citizens/

https://internationalskeptics.com/forums/index.php?tags/fotl/

 

[dudalb]

These kooks have been around for a while, and have been througly discussed here.

 

[Resume]

They're calling themselves American State Nationals now.

 

[Norman Alexander]

They're calling themselves American State Nationals now.

Who are calling them that? And would it be an attempt to distance themselves from the socially-repugnant name "sovereign citizens"?

 

[psionl0]

Okay, you may have heard of "sovereign citizens on the land". If not, look 'em up.

Welcome to the forum.

 

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Welcome to the forum.

Thanks! It's good to get a welcome on my first day here. Appreciated.

 

[8enotto]

Who are calling them that? And would it be an attempt to distance themselves from the socially-repugnant name "sovereign citizens"?

As the courts wised up and judges had better prepared to shut down the time wasting and delay tactics the practitioners of this idea rebranded. There was a tiny shift in the doctored documents they could buy online that kept them locked into citizenship but pushed further from being subject to the enforcement of it.
Just words added to historical documents really or lines omitted but the base was a real document.

The gurus selling this garbage convinced many that it was somehow going to hold water.

The courts noted small changes but continued with quick shutdowns and contempt charges to discourage such behavior.

Somehow a sov citizen was a slur without a nation but an American State National meant they belong here but have a higher power in the constitution. Your police and laws don't apply to me. Which is funny when Australian and British people try this ideology in thier homeland.

 

[Mojo]

Somehow a sov citizen was a slur without a nation but an American State National meant they belong here but have a higher power in the constitution. Your police and laws don't apply to me. Which is funny when Australian and British people try this ideology in thier homeland.

I haven't spotted any British ones trying this particular stupidity, although they are often very keen on things like the Uniform Commercial Code and Black's Law Dictionary.

 

[8enotto]

Early American colonial law and British law are the same/very similar depending on who made the last edition. A lot of that is shared but the Aussie knotheads and a few British were using the parts of the American constitution direct from the downloaded files. It confused the police on scene more than a bit. Those videos were funny.

 

[Resume]

Who are calling them that? And would it be an attempt to distance themselves from the socially-repugnant name "sovereign citizens"?

8enotto pretty much covered it in post 9.

 

[arthwollipot]

Well worth a read to understand the weird word games they play in order to try and argue that the law doesn't apply to them.

The conspiracy-adjacent politicians finding allies in Sovereign Citizens - The Skeptic

Former politicians like Andrew Bridgen, Ben Habib and Godfrey Bloom sat by as conspiracy theorists were taught sovereign citizen legal woo

www.skeptic.org.uk

Sample:

After the briefest of introductions, Gary was soon into the good stuff, asking the audience: “Anybody here married? Because you’ve been through a horse breeding ceremony”. At first blush, this may have seemed like a judgement of the largely-rural audience, but Gary had brought the receipts, explaining, “What do you need to control a horse? You need a groom.”

Clearly, the suggestion here was that a ‘groom’ as in ‘bride and groom’ is the same as a ‘groom’ who tends to a horse, therefore marriages are an animal husbandry ritual about tending to livestock. Which sounds possible (if not plausible or reasonable), if you spend no time at all investigating the origin and meaning of words. A groom was simply the 12th-century name for a youth or young man; when he was a young man who worked in the stables, he was the horse groom; when he’s a young man about to get married to a bride, he’s the bridegroom.

 

[Dabop]

Well worth a read to understand the weird word games they play in order to try and argue that the law doesn't apply to them.

The conspiracy-adjacent politicians finding allies in Sovereign Citizens - The Skeptic

Former politicians like Andrew Bridgen, Ben Habib and Godfrey Bloom sat by as conspiracy theorists were taught sovereign citizen legal woo

www.skeptic.org.uk

Sample:

That's yet another variation of the word games they like to play- like 'do you understand?' is a required question that has to be answered Y/N in the US after being read their Miranda rights (and no the 'Miranda warning' isn't required outside the US- some jurisdictions have something similar (but often worded quite differently)- but the sovcit/FOTL (pronounced 'footel lol--for Freeman On The Land) usually answers NO (tying up police even further as they are now required to reread it to them again, and explain what each bit means- this isn't a 'just trying to drag things out' tactic but its a spinoff of the 'words have different meanings' nonsense- by saying NO- they don't mean they didn't understand their rights- its a play on words and part of the 'refusing to contract with the police'- if they said yes to it, then they would be 'standing under' them or being in servitude to them/the government ie making a contract with them.... and thats a big NONO in the sovcit/FOTL scene- NEVER make contract with someone lol
(same with the 'red wet ink' seals etc- without all that nonsense, 'its not a valid contract so your rules don't apply to me')

(another common one is the whole admiralty/nautical nonsense, gold fringe on a flag (in the US lol) is supposed to mean that the court is a maritime court (which has different rules) so they start the whole 'refusing to stand in the dock, 'berth certificate' (birth lol) etc etc- the sovcits do love themselves a good 'wordplay' to try and show why they arent part of society's rules....)

And the ever popular 'I'm traveling, not driving' nonsense (with sub journeys into definitions of 'cars' versus vehicles, moving private property versus driving a car etc etc

Like I said, they love their wordplays....

 

[Dabop]

I haven't spotted any British ones trying this particular stupidity, although they are often very keen on things like the Uniform Commercial Code and Black's Law Dictionary.

American State National is a subset of the Moors group of sovcits- its a constantly shifting scene, with the gurus 'rebranding' the same tired old nonsense with new names to keep the suckers rolling in

Youtube has been both a blessing and a curse- it has allowed them to spread their nonsense further- but also shows how often its is a major failure... (the everpopular 'sovcit rides Mr Sparky, loses and turns a ticket into an arrest or has their windows smashed out is always a popular youtube antisovcit thing, good for getting a lot of viewers onto a channels lol) but it bad for the gurus- their names get known, as do their (many) failures- so rebranding becomes a must- "No WE aren't a Moorish National (cause theres HEAPS of those being arrested etc) so it morphs to we are American State Nationals- totally different see?????

 

[chrispy]

Has anyone else seen the recent movie "Sovereign" starring Nick Offerman and Dennis Quaid? It's a hard watch, but well worth it.

 

[Planigale]

I haven't spotted any British ones trying this particular stupidity, although they are often very keen on things like the Uniform Commercial Code and Black's Law Dictionary.

If you follow Scottish nationalist sites there are a number of 'sovereign citizens' posts. Essentially they claim that since the declaration of arbroath the people of scotland are sovereign so the the treaty of union is invalid, so scotland is independent and westminster laws cannot be applied to scots in Scotland. I am not sure that push it as far as not paying taxes or registering cars etc.

 

[Gawdzilla Sama]

I ask SC's in the US to show me what part of the highway they paid for.

 

[8enotto]

I have not had the privilege of meeting any in person. But if I had to listen to a lecture about alternative laws and other fantastic drivel I am out.

 

[Carrot Flower King]

Well worth a read to understand the weird word games they play in order to try and argue that the law doesn't apply to them.

The conspiracy-adjacent politicians finding allies in Sovereign Citizens - The Skeptic

Former politicians like Andrew Bridgen, Ben Habib and Godfrey Bloom sat by as conspiracy theorists were taught sovereign citizen legal woo

www.skeptic.org.uk

Sample:

Yer man there, Mr Frown (sic), is quite the eejit...To the point of giving an average eejit an unwarrented reputation for excessive stupidity, rather than being, well, just a bit of an eejit.

Why is he allowed out in public unsupervised?