Split Thread Are Antifa and violent leftists the cause of everything wrong in America?

[arthwollipot]

You're surprised that opposition to the far right comes from the left?

 

[Mojo]

I'm not aware that they do. Why do Leftists love bloodthirsty psychopaths?

Every accusation...

 

[steenkh]

They were not Antifa. They were Antifaschistische Aktion, established by the KPD to oppose the National Socialist German Workers' Party.

The abbreviation Antifa is typically German, and is used for the Antifaschistische Aktion, though I cannot prove that it was used at the time.

And there is no unbroken line linking them to the modern anti-fascist movement. And yes, at the time, communism was the main opposing ideology in town.

I would have been surprised if there was an unbroken line to the modern anti-fascist movement, because as I have claimed several times here, Anti-fascism is not an organisation, any more than skeptics are an organisation.

 

[steenkh]

You're surprised that opposition to the far right comes from the left?

I guess this was a comment for me: yes, I am slightly surprised that opposition to the far right in the US is not really materialising among Republicans. In Denmark, and Germany, right-wing parties have gone quite far to keep the far right out of government.

It is probably because of the two-party system, that encourages "either you are with us, or against us" inside the same party.

 

[Mojo]

I guess this was a comment for me: yes, I am slightly surprised that opposition to the far right in the US is not really materialising among Republicans. In Denmark, and Germany, right-wing parties have gone quite far to keep the far right out of government.

It is probably because of the two-party system, that encourages "either you are with us, or against us" inside the same party.

It’s more because the far right are in charge of the Republican Party.

 

[Nihilianth]

Very few groups are purely anti- whatever it is. They have principles on which they base their opposition, reasons for their opposition. Not everybody who opposes fascism shares the same reasons or ideology. You shouldn't pretend that you can meaningfully lump them under the same banner.

I have no idea how many times this needs to be said:

If you are antifa, you are anti-fascist. Period. That's literally the shortened term.

Again, you CAN lump everyone who declares themselves to be against fascists as antifa.
Doctors, lawyers, capitalists, environmentalists, communists, socialists, dog trainers, baseball players, hockey fans, teachers, nurses, firefighters, cancer patients, rock climbers..... A.N.Y.O.N.E who is anti-facists, all have that in common!

The president of China, who is the leader of the Chinese Communist Party, could be a fan of baseball.
Elon Musk, trillionaire wannabe, and extreme lasseiz faire capitalist, could ALSO be a fan of baseball.
The Pope could be a fan of baseball (which I believe he actually is.)
James Randi himself, whom this very forum was once named after, could have been a baseball fan - atheist skeptic extraordinare!

You can LITERALLY lump these four men all into the category of "baseball fan."

If you like baseball, you are a baseball fan. And yes. You would lump every fan of baseball into baseball fandom.

Same with anti-fascism. If you oppose fascism, you are anti-fascist. Period. End of story.

You are wrong. There are several organized groups called Antifa, generally sharing an anarchist, anti-government agenda.

There are several organized groups called "Republicans," generally sharing an anti-government agenda. That doesn't change the fact that they are registered as and vote for Republicans. There are organized groups called "Republicans" that are hardcore government lovers who are fascists. There are Republican groups who are also antifa and oppose Trump in every single way. They are all still Republicans.

No, you are grossly misinformed and gravely mistaken.

Oh, just because you declare this.

How in GOD'S name do you suppose that anti-fascists aren't anti-fascists? This makes absolutely completely no ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ sense whatsoever.

The original Antifa were Communists. Literal, self-proclaimed, German-party Communists. The modern organizations tapped into that ideology.

Yes! communists CAN be anti-facists! congratulations! Now we are getting somewhere! Know who else can be anti-fascist?

Capitalists
Doctors
Lawyers
Rock Climbers
Baseball Fans
Baseball Players
The Pope
President Xi
George Bush, Jr.
Obama
Swimmers
Rich
Poor
Cancer Patients
Atheists
Christians
Muslims
Jews
Buddhists
Hindus
Americans
French
British
Canadians
Australians
South Africans
Russians
Japanese
Teachers
Nurses
EMTs
Firefights
Inevitably some Cops probably are.

Shall I go on? It's such a terribly difficult subject. I know that.

I oppose fascism, Antifa, Communists, Socialists, Democratic Socialists and Leftists in general. All of these are flavors of Leftists. That's what you are missing. No, "Antifa" is not a generic term for opposition to fascism.

You are definitely a fascist masochistic kook. You declare yourself to be antifa, while opposing antifa.

 

[Nihilianth]

If that were true, Antifa wouldn't need to skulk around in masks and body armor. They would be posing like the men in the photo.

So its ok for fascists like ICE to do so, but not anti-fascists? Ok, weirdo.

Allow me to point out to you that our military men did not kill Nazis or fascists just because those people were Nazis or fascists. In fact, many countries, including the US, were comfortable engaging in trade with Nazis and fascists for several years, and likely would have continued doing so if the Nazis and fascists hadn't engaged in hostilities, ultimately leading to Hitler preemptively declaring war on the US. The US was not at war with Nazis or fascists on ideological grounds, but on practical reality. Likewise, the US did not ally with the Soviet Union because of a shared ideology. Our alliances and opposition were made on pragmatic grounds.

They also didn't have a ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ crystal ball, you weirdo.

The writing on the wall is Beware of Authoritarianism that would undermine your God-given freedoms. There are a lot of groups in this world that are trying to gain control over what you can do and what you are allowed to say, people who think they know better than you because of some profound, godless philosophy.

Yeah. They are called....wait for it.... "FACSISTS!"

Which is why WE. ALL. OPPOSE them! Meaning, REAL Americans. And various other nationalities (not to leave out our Canadian friends.... British, Australian, French, German, and etc, etc, etc.....)

 

[Nihilianth]

I guess this was a comment for me: yes, I am slightly surprised that opposition to the far right in the US is not really materialising among Republicans. In Denmark, and Germany, right-wing parties have gone quite far to keep the far right out of government.

It is probably because of the two-party system, that encourages "either you are with us, or against us" inside the same party.

Well, the whole "antifa" conversation is quickly becoming boring. Im going to switch topics here for a moment:

The US actually does not have a "two party system." It really is a multiparty system.

Rather, the US has a 'first past the post" system, which very strongly encourages people to vote against the party they do not want in power. Rather than for the party they do want in power. This causes "strategic voting" to occur, wherein, you vote for the party that has the very best chance at defeating the one party you hate.

Basically, the Democratic and Republican Parties in US politics, are "super-coalitions." Other parties still do exist. A dozen or more if I am not mistaken. Several different parties with the name "Independent" in them. As well as the Green and Constitutional Parties. The Green and Constitutional Parties are the next step down from the Democrats and Republicans, traditionally the Greens and Constitutionals are more extreme than the Dems and Reps.

 

[Mojo]

Yes! communists CAN be anti-facists!

They can also be fascists.

 

[steenkh]

It’s more because the far right are in charge of the Republican Party.

But why are they in charge of the Republican Party? I think it is because the rest of the party thinks like Opcode: fascists are useful, we can always stop them when they have destroyed the opposition.

 

[steenkh]

The US actually does not have a "two party system." It really is a multiparty system.

Yeah, right

 

[Nihilianth]

Yeah, right

Theres literally no such thing as a "two party system," and I like how you took a few words out of that entire post, lol. You either have a single-party system, such as a fascist or communist nation often are, or you havea multiparty system like the US, UK, Germany, etc all have.

 

[Nihilianth]

They can also be fascists.

Absolutely they can. Which is why I used the word "can" when I almost used the word "are" in response to that person's post who insisted that they "are."

Communism is an economic system.
Fascism is a system of government wherein, the autocratic leader has complete and total power.

Communism isn't incompatible with fascism, anymore than it is with a monarchy, a republic, or a direct democracy.

Same with capitalism and mercantilism. Though, mercantilism is most compatible with autocratic regimes. But you can autocratic regimes that are capitalist, communist, or mercantilist. You can have a republic that is communist, capitalist, or mercantilist. You can have a monarchy that is communist, capitalist, or mercantilist.

Basically, you can mix and match any sort of government system with any sort of economic system. Though some government types work best with certain economic types.

 

[Aridas]

Allow me to point out to you that our military men did not kill Nazis or fascists just because those people were Nazis or fascists. In fact, many countries, including the US, were comfortable engaging in trade with Nazis and fascists for several years, and likely would have continued doing so if the Nazis and fascists hadn't engaged in hostilities, ultimately leading to Hitler preemptively declaring war on the US. The US was not at war with Nazis or fascists on ideological grounds, but on practical reality. Likewise, the US did not ally with the Soviet Union because of a shared ideology. Our alliances and opposition were made on pragmatic grounds.

Fair enough. To add a little more context to this, though, it just happened to be Republicans with rich "conservative" backers who tried to pull off a literal pro-Nazi coup in the US, and this didn't even remotely come out of nowhere. Then and now in the US and in Germany, the parallels between which groups are doing what are significant.

The writing on the wall is Beware of Authoritarianism that would undermine your God-given freedoms. There are a lot of groups in this world that are trying to gain control over what you can do and what you are allowed to say, people who think they know better than you because of some profound, godless philosophy.

You say this and it is true enough, but actions speak louder than words when it comes to showing your actual position. Saying that you oppose Authoritarianism while taking action to support the people with actual power trying to take our rights and make it reality makes your pretense false. Fighting against those who oppose Authoritarianism under the pretense that a few powerless people that you associate with them (using questionable logic) did something bad just makes your pretense of opposing Authoritarianism all the more false.

 

[Aridas]

Theres literally no such thing as a "two party system," and I like how you took a few words out of that entire post, lol. You either have a single-party system, such as a fascist or communist nation often are, or you havea multiparty system like the US, UK, Germany, etc all have.

Technically, you are quite correct. In practice, though, as you've noted with the First past the Post and strategic voting bit, the distinction is not far from splitting hairs.

 

[Resume]

Snicker.

 

[Opcode]

You have demonstrated clearly that the highlighted sentence is not exactly true. In fact, you have implied that as long as "leftists" are kept from power, you'll accept just about anything.

We are very far from the "anything" boogeyman that Leftists keep pretending is Trump. Hyperbole and fear-mongering are not new in politics, but the things done to Trump have crossed into felonious behavior a few times.

This is much like how the conservatives in Germany enabled Hitler's Nazi party in the beginning of the 1930's.

Germany was not a great place to be for most people in the 1920s/'30s. The country was shattered from WWI and the reparations required under the Treaty of Versailles. The Hyperinflation Crisis (1921–1923) ruined the economy. By November 1923, a single US dollar was worth 4.2 trillion German Marks. In 1932, unemployment was 30% of the workforce. Political instability, emerging revolutionary and violent political groups (Communist and Nazi) and a weak government led to frequent violent street riots. People were desperate and Hitler was very persuasive.

It had to take an imminent defeat in WWII before some conservatives tried (unsuccessfully) to stop the maniac who destroyed their country.

Germany was all-but destroyed when Hitler came to power. The people who tried to stop Hitler did not do so on Conservative grounds, but on pragmatic grounds.

I call your (and their) position support for fascism.

You apparently have no idea what fascism is, or what pretty much any other ideology is. To you, the world is black-and-white, pro-fascists or anti-fascist, nothing else.

An yes, the first antifas, and the ones who coined the phrase, were communists, but that does not stop antifa from being short for anti-fascism.

As such, it is an arrogant assumption of other's identities.

 

[AmyStrange]

We are very far from the "anything" boogeyman that Leftists keep pretending is Trump. Hyperbole and fear-mongering are not new in politics, but the things done to Trump have crossed into felonious behavior a few times.

Germany was not a great place to be for most people in the 1920s/'30s. The country was shattered from WWI and the reparations required under the Treaty of Versailles. The Hyperinflation Crisis (1921–1923) ruined the economy. By November 1923, a single US dollar was worth 4.2 trillion German Marks. In 1932, unemployment was 30% of the workforce. Political instability, emerging revolutionary and violent political groups (Communist and Nazi) and a weak government led to frequent violent street riots. People were desperate and Hitler was very persuasive.

Germany was all-but destroyed when Hitler came to power. The people who tried to stop Hitler did not do so on Conservative grounds, but on pragmatic grounds.

You apparently have no idea what fascism is, or what pretty much any other ideology is. To you, the world is black-and-white, pro-fascists or anti-fascist, nothing else.

As such, it is an arrogant assumption of other's identities.

More blah, blah, blah based on absolutely no proof.

Come on, Opcode, quit all that and give us the evidence that all your blanket statements are true.

I dare you.

 

[Opcode]

I would have been surprised if there was an unbroken line to the modern anti-fascist movement, because as I have claimed several times here, Anti-fascism is not an organisation, any more than skeptics are an organisation.

Antifa springs out of philosophical schools of thought, which may or may not create organizations, rather than the other way around. It is the philosophy of modern Antifa that is connected to its 1920s ancestor, regardless of an organization embodying this philosophy. It is the philosophy of contemporary Antifa that motivates the several autonomous groups that operate nationwide, regardless of the lack of a centralized command structure. Furthermore, regardless of the lack of national organizational structure, it is possible to charge members of the localized groups with conspiracy to commit crimes if they collaborate to commit crimes.

 

[steenkh]

Germany was not a great place to be for most people in the 1920s/'30s.

I have recently noted that 12.5% of the American population needs food coupons to survive. The U.S. doesn't sound to be such a great place either.

The country was shattered from WWI and the reparations required under the Treaty of Versailles. The Hyperinflation Crisis (1921–1923) ruined the economy. By November 1923, a single US dollar was worth 4.2 trillion German Marks. In 1932, unemployment was 30% of the workforce. Political instability, emerging revolutionary and violent political groups (Communist and Nazi) and a weak government led to frequent violent street riots. People were desperate and Hitler was very persuasive.

Modern historians tend to think that the crisis was not as deep as usually made out, and Germany was beginning to come out of the crisis by the time Hitler came into power. And Hitler was not as persuasive as you think: he never gained a majority. The reason why he could make his power grab was because conservative useful idiots enabled him.