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Ed The Fascism Checklist, Trump 2025

P.J. Denyer said:
Didn't you know the Nazis appeared out of no-where in 1939 and definately didn't do anything in the Thirties that might have raised red flags and that might have uncomfortable echos now.
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It was my understanding that they all collectively woke up one morning and decided that killing Jews and other minorities would totally solve all their problems.
 
NM156 said:
It was my understanding that they all collectively woke up one morning and decided that killing Jews and other minorities would totally solve all their problems.
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I hate it when I go to sleep one night and during the night there's been a world war and a Holocaust and most of the continent had been under fascist rule and now 50-70 million people are dead.
 
I still think Trump is too ignorant and stupid to be an actual fascist but there are definitely fascists around and supporting him. He's certainly happy to listen to anyone that will say yes to his stupidest most destructive whims.
 
NM156 said:
Who is minimizing Nazi Germany?
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This is one of the problems with labeling almost anything of the right as fascist, it tends to minimize the NAZIs. Much like the right calling everything to the left of them a commie or a socialist minimizes the actual damage done by commie regimes.
 
dirtywick said:
do you generally think fascists are smart?
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Smart enough to have an ideology beyond self-aggrandizement and self-enrichment. Mussolini was smart at least. Salazar and Franco too, though I'm pretty sure Franco was more of a monarchist than a fascist.

Salzar and Franco milked the fascists for support but managed to avoid their downfall.
 
ahhell said:
I still think Trump is too ignorant and stupid to be an actual fascist but there are definitely fascists around and supporting him. He's certainly happy to listen to anyone that will say yes to his stupidest most destructive whims.
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He doesn't have to think: it's what his father taught him. He is constantly surprised that not everyone is as fascist/authoritarian as him.
 
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ahhell said:
This is one of the problems with labeling almost anything of the right as fascist, it tends to minimize the NAZIs. Much like the right calling everything to the left of them a commie or a socialist minimizes the actual damage done by commie regimes.
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OK but in defense of people calling the right Nazis, it does get kind of confusing when the right keeps doing all the same ◊◊◊◊.
 
NM156 said:
OK but in defense of people calling the right Nazis, it does get kind of confusing when the right keeps doing all the same ◊◊◊◊.
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Downsizing/undermining state institutions, restricting immigration, and appeals to tradition for instance were strong elements of the Old Right before the Nazis, and any overlap with the Nazis is just because they're both on the Right. So I will maintain that it's important to appreciate the differences.
 
Venom said:
Downsizing/undermining state institutions, restricting immigration, and appeals to tradition for instance were strong elements of the Old Right before the Nazis
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Not if you are talking about Germany, except for the “appeal to tradition”. It was all about maintaining status quo – or making it better for the upper classes. Industrialisation was not driven by socialists. Bismarck introduced the first social laws, and you would not call him a leftie.

What made the Nazis Nazis in contrast to being just Right, was their power base among workers, and populist politics. Not unlike the present day Republicans. We have a thread about the similarities here.
 
Venom said:
Downsizing/undermining state institutions, restricting immigration, and appeals to tradition for instance were strong elements of the Old Right before the Nazis, and any overlap with the Nazis is just because they're both on the Right. So I will maintain that it's important to appreciate the differences.
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True that lumping the old right's sins with those of the Nazis threatens to erase their sins when they can deny the kinship. I had this argument long ago with my stepson. As a child he absorbed some pretty leftist ideas (whoda thunkit?) but as adolescents sometimes do, he oversimplified a bit, and tended to portray his chosen foes as literal Nazis and storm troopers. While appreciating the sentiment I had to point out that if they can fairly easily disavow the hyperbole, they sort of win the argument. You have to nail their sins for what they are, not what they look like.

But that said, I can sympathize with NM156, when it's become the standard form of discourse, and the opprobrious rightwingers call everyone who opposes turning the armed forces into domestic secret police and masked gunmen leading former DACA children into cages with chains, etc. a traitor and a communist. As usual, when engaging with the violent and the insane, it is very hard for the sane to win without becoming as bad as they are.
 
bruto said:
True that lumping the old right's sins with those of the Nazis threatens to erase their sins when they can deny the kinship. I had this argument long ago with my stepson. As a child he absorbed some pretty leftist ideas (whoda thunkit?) but as adolescents sometimes do, he oversimplified a bit, and tended to portray his chosen foes as literal Nazis and storm troopers. While appreciating the sentiment I had to point out that if they can fairly easily disavow the hyperbole, they sort of win the argument. You have to nail their sins for what they are, not what they look like.

But that said, I can sympathize with NM156, when it's become the standard form of discourse, and the opprobrious rightwingers call everyone who opposes turning the armed forces into domestic secret police and masked gunmen leading former DACA children into cages with chains, etc. a traitor and a communist. As usual, when engaging with the violent and the insane, it is very hard for the sane to win without becoming as bad as they are.
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What we have here is a case of crying wolf. Yes, for seemingly decades everyone on the right was "nazis" - so the claim got watered down. I'm fairly certain that was by design in some cases. But today, we have a world leader that quotes Hitler both in words and in deeds. That's not hyperbole, that's what's happening. So speaking only for myself, the comparison is apt.

I'm afraid we're going to have to go all the way to WW3 and genocide before a certain segment of the population wakes up.
 
NM156 said:
What we have here is a case of crying wolf. Yes, for seemingly decades everyone on the right was "nazis" - so the claim got watered down. I'm fairly certain that was by design in some cases. But today, we have a world leader that quotes Hitler both in words and in deeds. That's not hyperbole, that's what's happening. So speaking only for myself, the comparison is apt.

I'm afraid we're going to have to go all the way to WW3 and genocide before a certain segment of the population wakes up.
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Americans need to experience war here, something that hasn't happened in a while, to wake up IMO.
 
NM156 said:
Who is minimizing Nazi Germany?
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I would say everyone who easily compares Trump, or W (popular back then, but not to this degree) with Hitler, or Mussolini, or Stalin, or Mao, or Pol Pot. The children used by those Republicans of the Lincoln Project will likely never learn about 20th Century history. So, no problem.
 
Walter said:
I would say everyone who easily compares Trump, or W (popular back then, but not to this degree) with Hitler, or Mussolini, or Stalin, or Mao, or Pol Pot. The children used by those Republicans of the Lincoln Project will likely never learn about 20th Century history. So, no problem.
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Bolded = Valid. Italicized = Not valid.

Are you under the impression that all of Germany woke up one morning hell bent on killing Jews and other minorities?
 
NM156 said:
Bolded = Valid. Italicized = Not valid.

Are you under the impression that all of Germany woke up one morning hell bent on killing Jews and other minorities?
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Remember, if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck but hasn't actually looked at you and gone 'Quack' you're definitely not allowed to call it a duck. Until Trump invades Poland he's not a Nazi, he's just a very naughty boy.
 
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