Split Thread Epstein murdered

[smartcooky]

There are certainly questions that need answering about Epstein's death, but for my money, one of them is, 'If Epstein was murdered in prison, why didn't Maxwell suffer a nasty accident before her trial?'

And certainly in the year when she was on the run....

Indeed. Her knowledge of who was involved in Epstein's filty schemes is every bit as damaging as Epstein's himself... perhaps even more damaging as she was responsible for arranging a lot of it.

While the fact that "Epstein Didn't Kill Himself" was already meme-status before Epstein actually killed himself is at least a little odd, like all conspiracy theories it just doesn't make sense.

Why then? Why only after he was back in the news and his death was guaranteed to arouse suspicion? Why didn't the New World Order Rand Corporation Grey Aliens whoever just arraign for Epstein to slip in the shower or have a traffic accident on a busy news day so it got buried on page 10 at any point in the decade between him being in the news? Why wait until every body is talking about someone to kill them?

Yup. Why wasn't he snuffed in 2008 when he was in the act of making the plea deal with Alex Acosta, the US Attorney for the Southern District of Florida? No-one outside of the prosecutor's office knew the terms of that plea deal - he could have been offering to name names!
.
.

 

[Thermal]

Indeed. Her knowledge of who was involved in Epstein's filty schemes is every bit as damaging as Epstein's himself... perhaps even more damaging as she was responsible for arranging a lot of it.



Yup. Why wasn't he snuffed in 2008 when he was in the act of making the plea deal with Alex Acosta, the US Attorney for the Southern District of Florida? No-one outside of the prosecutor's office knew the terms of that plea deal - he could have been offering to name names!
.
.

Devil's Advocate: even the rich and powerful are not all powerful, and need to wait till a time when they have enough friendly's in the system for something that bold.

 

[Axxman300]

From wikipedia:

On August 9, 2019, Epstein's cellmate was transferred out, but no one took his place.[292]

They couldn't just throw any inmate into his cell with him. The NY Federal jail system is erratic on a good day. Putting the wrong guy in with Epstein would have ended the same way.

Later in the evening, contrary to the jail's normal procedure, Epstein was not checked every 30 minutes.[290][285][291] The two guards who were assigned to check his jail unit that night fell asleep and did not check on him for about three hours; the guards falsified related records.[285][293]

How is this not incompetence? Show me where the guards all bought new cars, or took vacations in the Bahamas following Epstein's demise.

And cameras failing? Welcome to the fun that is the United States Government maintenance system.

You ignore the fact that Epstein was a master manipulator. People handed him truck loads of money, threated him as if he was a scientist, and a spy, and a financial genius. He played the jail psychiatrist into taking him off suicide watch, and the played the guards into thinking he was cool.

You also ignore that Epstein was a sex addict who was into just about everything, and tried everything at least once. He was into autoerotic asphyxiation, which means he was good with knots, ropes, and improvised ligature using bed sheets, blankets, and towels.

Epstein was a billionaire looking at spending the rest of his life in prison, why wouldn't he commit suicide?

 

[Axxman300]

Corruption is rife in governments all over the world, but most people are quite unaware of it. If Epstein had delicate information of some of the most powerful people of the world I´m sure they had ways to off him, and the prison warden would be the ideal person to buy. How otherwise would you make sure to have all these "mistakes" made which led to his death? The cameras, the placing a murderer in his cell for the first attempt etc. The warden is a prime suspect.

Cool. Show me the money.

The DoJ looked at his bank account, and is still watching him and the rest of the guards on duty that night. Where are the bass boats? Where are the RVs? The Fur Coats? The Man Caves? The kids getting a free ride at Ivy League universities?

 

[Axxman300]

Devil's Advocate: even the rich and powerful are not all powerful, and need to wait till a time when they have enough friendly's in the system for something that bold.

Okay, but in the real world they would arrange to have the charges dropped. We see this often where the DoJ arrests a top-tier banker/financial broker of some kind, lay out their case which always seems solid, and then have the case thrown out on a technicality, or dropped all together.

Nobody dies. Favors are repaid down the road.

 

[Thermal]

Okay, but in the real world they would arrange to have the charges dropped. We see this often where the DoJ arrests a top-tier banker/financial broker of some kind, lay out their case which always seems solid, and then have the case thrown out on a technicality, or dropped all together.

Nobody dies. Favors are repaid down the road.

Again, purely DA: the rich and powerful don't want him free. They want him quiet, and more importantly, any potential bean-spiller quiet. The best way to insure silence is to show all that "they" can get to you anywhere, so shaddap. Since Epstein himself was tainted/outed now, he is actually of no further use to the Black Book entries, but he is a potential serious liability, as is everyone involved.

 

[Roger Ramjets]

Epstein was a billionaire looking at spending the rest of his life in prison, why wouldn't he commit suicide?

I'm pretty sure he did commit suicide. But how was this allowed to happen?

How is this not incompetence? Show me where the guards all bought new cars, or took vacations in the Bahamas following Epstein's demise.

And cameras failing? Welcome to the fun that is the United States Government maintenance system.

That's the beauty of it. No need to murder him, just let the rotten system take care of it, perhaps with a wink and a nudge to encourage it. Given the opportunity you know he will do the Right Thing^TM. Sure there will be backlash, but nothing they can pin on you - and all the 'skeptics' will be on your side.

Not much difference between this and all those Russians who fell out of windows. I mean, we have no evidence that they were pushed, and some evidence that they were suicidal. Maybe they jumped because it was expected of them. And maybe a 4th story hospital window was 'accidentally' left open to make it easy for them.

You ignore the fact that Epstein was a master manipulator.

Criminals often are, and the people who handle them know this. I don't buy that they were manipulated. At the very least they didn't care if he managed to off himself (or at least not enough to ensure he didn't). At what point does 'incompetence' become deliberate?

 

[Cat Not Included]

Seems like there's enough of a precedent and potential of prison guards just killing him because he was a POS that even if he was murdered (which seems...reasonably likely to me...), there's no need to bring in any kind of conspiracy. A few guards who think he's scum, or who are afraid his testimony will bring down great leader Trump, or whatever, could do it just fine without needing outside support.

 

[Axxman300]

I'm pretty sure he did commit suicide. But how was this allowed to happen?

That's the beauty of it. No need to murder him, just let the rotten system take care of it, perhaps with a wink and a nudge to encourage it. Given the opportunity you know he will do the Right Thing^TM. Sure there will be backlash, but nothing they can pin on you - and all the 'skeptics' will be on your side.

Not much difference between this and all those Russians who fell out of windows. I mean, we have no evidence that they were pushed, and some evidence that they were suicidal. Maybe they jumped because it was expected of them. And maybe a 4th story hospital window was 'accidentally' left open to make it easy for them.

Criminals often are, and the people who handle them know this. I don't buy that they were manipulated. At the very least they didn't care if he managed to off himself (or at least not enough to ensure he didn't). At what point does 'incompetence' become deliberate?

That looks like what happened. They just gave him the tools and the opportunity to end things. Just as there's no consequences for cops taking their time to reach a 911 call in certain neighborhoods, there are no serious consequences for federal guards not doing their jobs.

This was the same facility that kept El Chapo Guzman alive during his trial. The crew there was capable, which made his suicide so much more questionable. But I doubt anyone entered his cell, and I doubt anyone whispered instructions to him or the guards. Epstein saw a pattern emerge and took advantage of it.

 

[Axxman300]

Seems like there's enough of a precedent and potential of prison guards just killing him because he was a POS that even if he was murdered (which seems...reasonably likely to me...), there's no need to bring in any kind of conspiracy. A few guards who think he's scum, or who are afraid his testimony will bring down great leader Trump, or whatever, could do it just fine without needing outside support.

But in the end, why would a guard, or guards risk 20 years in federal prison over Jeffrey Epstein. Yes, he was scum, but the fact is he was going to get shanked once he was in the pen. Look at what happened to Whitey Bulger. That guy was only the third murder in that West Virginia prison in 40 years. The fact is that if you want to reach out and touch someone in a federal prison it's possible for the right people.

A great question needing to be asked is why Maxwell's client list remains out of public view? That is a real issue with no good answer.

 

[angrysoba]

Look at the way in which Ghislaine Maxwell's legal escapades are interpreted by conspiracy theorists.

First they claimed her escape from the law was assisted by The Powers That Be (TPTB), then when caught it was assumed she would be "Epsteined" by TPTB. Then someone I know on Facebook was claiming that Maxwell's trial was subject to complete media blackout (it turned out that the trial had not even started at that point, and the preliminaries were indeed being covered by the media). Then the CTists jitterbugged back and forth on whether a light or a heavy sentence was proving that TPTB were sending her a warning or letting her off. A nice prison would be evidence that she was being treated well in exchange for not spilling the beans, and a high security prison with bad conditions would prove that they were sending her a message.

With the whole Epstein and Maxwell thing literally nothing could ever disprove conspiracy theories about them.

In fact, probably the only thing that I have found puts them off talking about Epstein is if you show them pictures of Trump with Epstein and Maxwell. Suddenly they get very insistent that such photographs mean nothing.

 

[smartcooky]

Devil's Advocate: even the rich and powerful are not all powerful, and need to wait till a time when they have enough friendly's in the system for something that bold.

Have you ever seen the terms of that 2008 sweetheart deal?


If you haven't seen it, or have forgotten, let me remind you...

For his criminal conduct of luring dozens of under-aged girls to his Palm Beach estate on the pretense of giving him massages before he escalated things to sex acts, then using those girls to recruit other girls, Epstein was rewarded by the US attorney for Southern District of Florida, the feckless Alex Acosta, a non-prosecution deal in which he pleaded guilty to a single state charge of soliciting prostitution, paid a fine, registered as a sexual predator and served 13 months of an 18-month sentence. The terms of the sentencing allowed him to serve the weekly workday hours in his office (no guards) and to return voluntarily to jail each night. No federal charges were ever filed!

No need for "friendlies in the system" to off him back then... they could have got him in his office or traveling to <-> from...
.
.

 

[stanfr]

Of all the CTs out there, the Epstein murder hypothesis is one of the more likely to be true IMO.
And the latest fiasco with Kash Patel and Bongino going on Fox and declaring unequivocally "Oh he definitely killed himself" just makes it more likely.
These two have never met a CT they didn't like, and they are both pathological liars.
The right was super anxious to adopt the idea that Clinton or the Deep State had Epstein killed, but when Trump is involved, (the same trump who was in office when Epstein died) all of a sudden it is "Oh he obviously killed himself" with no explanation, that is just their assessment and you should take it at face value. Kash Patel says his experience as a Defender and familiarity with jails etc means he is an expert and can spot a suicide when he sees it.
Well I was a Public Defender too, and from my experience, someone of Epstein's status would have been guarded round the clock and security surveillance would not have 'failed'
I don't know if he was murdered or not, but it is laughably ironic that these two sycophants all of a sudden are 100% certain it was suicide.

 

[angrysoba]

So you’re saying Trump got to them to cover up his pedo behaviour with Epstein?

I mean, seriously, the Epstein thing has always been better explained by the fact that he had already tried to off himself, was put on suicide watch, which is miserable, was taken off, presumably at his and lawyers request, knew he was going to be going to prison for life for being a pedophile and then tried again at the next opportunity. His guards were fired, were they not? In which case, why would they not have spilled the beans?

 

[stanfr]

So you’re saying Trump got to them to cover up his pedo behaviour with Epstein?

I mean, seriously, the Epstein thing has always been better explained by the fact that he had already tried to off himself, was put on suicide watch, which is miserable, was taken off, presumably at his and lawyers request, knew he was going to be going to prison for life for being a pedophile and then tried again at the next opportunity. His guards were fired, were they not? In which case, why would they not have spilled the beans?

Well, he was 'best buddies' with Jeff for a good decade. And the ties to Mar a Lago run deep. If *anyone* had reason to keep things quiet, Trump was high on the list. If you are CT-inclined, firing the guards is not exculpatory; *if* they were paid off they don't care if they are fired or not, more importantly any criminal charges against them were dropped.
I said very clearly, I do not know how Epstein died, perhaps it was suicide, I certainly would not be shocked to have that somehow verified. As you said, he certainly had a motive to kill himself!
My *only* reason for posting here is to point out the extreme hypocrisy of true purveyors of all things CT related, and I mean all things! (Kash Patel never met a CT he didn't like) suddenly becoming 100% sure there was no conspiracy here. Why do you think they have suddenly done a 180 on their entire worldview just when it comes to Epstein? Like Trump being extremely anxious to release any and all documents relating to Kennedy or aliens or whatever, but suddenly being reticent when it comes to something close to home for him.
I am contrasting my personal experience as a PD, who has represented dozens of defendants who were put on suicide watches, with Kash Patel's claimed experience, his narrative does not fit what I experienced in jails with clients who ranged from complete nobodys to people who had media attention.
I don't think it is weird to find all of it just a tad suspicious. Being skeptical about a CT does not mean declaring it wrong simply because it is not the 'official' explanation.

 

[Thermal]

I forgot a lot of the Epstein thing, but didn't he get a sweetheart deal for earlier offences and was likely to get another, after a show of making him do some time? I thought there were enough names believed to be in the Black Book to virtually guarantee that strings would be pulled in his favor?

 

[stanfr]

I forgot a lot of the Epstein thing, but didn't he get a sweetheart deal for earlier offences and was likely to get another, after a show of making him do some time? I thought there were enough names believed to be in the Black Book to virtually guarantee that strings would be pulled in his favor?

He definitely got a sweetheart deal with his first plea; anyone else would have been in jail for life with those charges. Don't know about getting another though. Beyond that is pure speculation, but it is pretty much without a doubt that he possessed evidence that could be used to blackmail numerous powerful people. It also does not escape me that if there is gonna be a conspiracy, a conspiracy to kill one person would be a lot easier to carry out than a conspiracy to threaten or pay off dozens of officials.

 

[Axxman300]

Just because Patel doesn't think it was a conspiracy doesn't suddenly make it a conspiracy. Others already laid out the right-wing CT about Hillary et al, but in the end the simple fact is if there was a conspiracy it was that Epstein was left unsupervised with the hope he would end things. That's it. Epstein could have stuck it out and tried his luck in the court.

 

[dirtywick]

Just because Patel doesn't think it was a conspiracy doesn't suddenly make it a conspiracy. Others already laid out the right-wing CT about Hillary et al, but in the end the simple fact is if there was a conspiracy it was that Epstein was left unsupervised with the hope he would end things. That's it. Epstein could have stuck it out and tried his luck in the court.

i agree this seems most likely. who it was and how they arranged his alone time is the conspiracy. and the subsequent lack of any action on the matter at all. extremely wealthy and powerful people committed acts of pedophilia, everyone knows it happened. how that's been completely dropped i think is another conspiracy.

 

[Orphia Nay]

extremely wealthy and powerful people committed acts of pedophilia, everyone knows it happened. how that's been completely dropped i think is another conspiracy.

Agreed, and it's a conspiracy, not a conspiracy theory.