• Quick note - the problem with Youtube videos not embedding on the forum appears to have been fixed, thanks to ZiprHead. If you do still see problems let me know.

Cont: The Sinking of MS Estonia: Case Re-opened Part IV

Status
Not open for further replies.
Vixen said:
How is it OBVIOUS CLERICAL ERRORS to have listed in the first place those now delisted Estonian crew? There has never been an explanation.
Click to expand...

It's never wise to try to explain the obvious to stupid people.



We saw how the Sweden Defence Forces secret services were happy to let relatives of the dead of the shot down DC-3's in 1952 not know of their loved ones fate, in the interests of keeping classified Sweden's covert highly secretive espionage activities on the Soviet Union, so you can't ruled out it having happened again.
Click to expand...

That's not an assassination, and that was in 1952, not 1994.

You continue to be really awful at this.
 
Vixen said:
Really? So London John is asserting confidently that the ship's crew needed to dive two fathoms below a raging sea to manually active the EPIRB's. He doesn't know what he is talking about.
Click to expand...


What????

What was that you were saying parroting about "not knowing what (you are) talking about"....?
 
Vixen said:
Not necessarily. As many of the soldiers on the Wilhelm Gustloff shot their wives and children before shooting themselves as the ship went down, that could be what Andresson did. Nobody knows. It seems the police and the JAIC are remarkably apathetic about finding out.

If a Finnish diver claims to have seen this, why was it not investigated further?


Surely a potential crime scene, if so.
Click to expand...

What planet are you from, anyway?

How does a wartime sinking have anything to do with 1994? Why doesn't a Finnish diver take a camera with him when he's exploring/investigating a wreck?

You believe anything but the truth.
 
Vixen said:
It didn't find it was 'a poorly maintained and badly repaired ship', it states very clearly that when it departed Tallin it was seaworthy and had no outstanding issues.
Click to expand...

Other than the lock and hinges being in questionable condition like her sister-ship, and the fact MS Estonia was not designed for open-ocean transit, yeah, there were no outstanding issues.
 
JayUtah said:
You missed the point. You have said 48 hours constitutes a "prolonged time" as defined in the various statutes that prohibit enforced disappearance. But ordinary arrests would then fall under that. It's reasonable to conclude that the "prolonged time" element was made part of the enforced disappearance statute to differentiate that activity from other activities on the part of the state that may require people to be detained incommunicado for shorter periods, and which would be considered acceptable under international law.

You are the one who must prove that 48 hours constitutes "prolonged time" under whichever enforced disappearance statute you're arguing applies.
Click to expand...


I don’t see what the point would be in disappearing the Estonia’s officers for 48 hours, anyway.
 
Mojo said:
I don’t see what the point would be in disappearing the Estonia’s officers for 48 hours, anyway.
Click to expand...

I don't either, and that's not what I see as the claim. Vixen wants to claim that the Egyptian deportees were "disappeared" because it took one person 48 hours to find out what had happened to them, and therefore enforced disappearance is something we should believe Sweden routinely does and did in the case of both the MS Estonia officers and the Egyptian deportees.

The claim is that the ongoing absence of MS Estonia's captain and other officers is that Sweden abducted them and committed enforced disappearance upon them, which remains to this day. Certainly from 1994 to 2022 would count as a "prolonged period of time."
 
Stamuel said:
I have been looking into the Avo Piht story to try to figure out where the various claims come from.

This article from Yle contains a lot of information. It has a photo of a list of survivors, which my machine translation suggests was posted in front of Tallinn's shipping terminal. (In Finnish: "Aamulla Tallinnan laivaterminaalin edessä liput ovat puolitangossa. Paikalle kokoontuu Estonian matkustajien ja henkilökunnan omaisia. Heitä yhdistää suunnaton suru ja epätietoisuus. Toimistovirkailija tulee kiinnittämään infopisteen ikkunaan ensimmäisten pelastuneiden listan. Terminaalissa syttyy hetkeksi toivonkipinä. Lista on valitettavan lyhyt, nopeasti ja harakanvarpain kirjoitettu. Pelastuneiden joukossa on kapteeni Avo Piht.") I have attached the photo to the post. You can see that it has Piht's name, though spelled wrong as 'Aavo Piht'. It does not have his date of birth.

In that article, the claim that all survivors had to give their date of birth comes from Captain Jüri Lember, who was in Rostock, Germany at the time of the sinking and thinks he saw Piht get out of an ambulance on TV. The machine translated sentence is: "In his opinion, only those who had personally given their name and year of birth were included in the list of names." (Finnish: "Lember sanoo, että tämä todistaa Pihtin pelastuneen. Hänen mielestään nimilistalle pääsivät vain ne, jotka olivat itse henkilökohtaisesti kertoneet nimensä ja syntymävuotensa.") So it looks like the source of the claim that all survivors had to give date of birth is just the opinion of someone who was not there and was not involved in the rescue in any way. (Another article from a different website also attributes the idea of date of birth to Lember.)

As far as who saw Piht alive or listed him as a survivor, all we get is: "‎According to several unofficial sources, Captain Piht was first brought by helicopter to Utön island and then to Turku.‎" (Finnish: "Useiden epävirallisten lähteiden mukaan kapteeni Piht tuotiin helikopterilla ensimmäisten pelastuneiden joukossa aluksi Utön saarelle ja sieltä Turkuun.") None of the unofficial sources are named or even described. This is it.

Oh, there is also this claim from Pirjo Peltoniemi, a retired journalist who used to work for Yle:

The closest thing to a witness in all of this is a guy who thought he saw him on TV.

There is another article about whether Piht was rescued that focuses on Avo Piht's wife and her claim that she knows exactly how he was rescued. However, the article says, "'We cannot comment further on this letter,' says Sirje Piht, who does not explain where or how she received the data concerning Avo Piht." (Estonian: "«Rohkem seda kirja kommenteerida ei saa,» ütleb Sirje Piht, kes ei selgita, kust või kuidas sai ta Avo Pihti puudutavad andmed.")

It really looks like the initial sources are a list posted at an information desk in Tallinn and people who thought they saw him on TV. None of the articles I found have a better source.

Interestingly, this article by Christopher Bollyn about Avo Piht contains all of the spin and misinformation that Vixen has been spouting, including the claim that Sweden "disappeared" two Egyptians in 2001. It is very light on sources, though, so isn't actually any help.
Click to expand...

This all makes sense. It started as a rumor, and was never verified, but not sufficiently corrected.

Should be pointed out that the rescued passengers and crew were extremely hypothermic, which means their statements would be unreliable as their perception and judgement would be impaired.
 
Vixen said:
He was part of a team. First, team Y64, and then (so JAIC claims) team Y74.

But we know from the command of the On Scene Commander that all helicopters with a faulty winch had to return to base. We are not told how long Y64 waited for Y74 to turn up, which you would think if it was for a long time it would be really milked.


Just to take our minds off the departure just after 0202, (Stockholm MRCC operations log; Aftonbladet) expected circa 0240 (MRCC Turku to Silja Europa) and 'arrived at 0300' (Ollie Moberg/ Olsson[?]).

What happened during that earlier flight? Enquiring minds need to know.


Where are the extra names on the early lists?


Why was Svensson's rescued list reduced from eight to one, with a pretense he was a one-man band for Y74 instead on a later rescue?
Click to expand...


How about you stop parroting crackpot claims from the likes of EFD and Bjorkman, eh?
 
Mojo said:
I suspect that it usually involves an unmarked grave.
Click to expand...
Yup, forced disppearance is typically an act of extrajudicial killing where the state responsible simply does its nasty business without any acknowledgement that they had anything to do with it.

If people being visited by their mothers in prison, or are appealing their detention, or any other situation that involves anyone but the guilty party knowing what happened to the victim, then it isn't forced disappearance.

Vixen's conspiracy theory now seems to rest on simply wilfully refusing to understand anything that might go against her incoherent mess of ideas.
 
JesseCuster said:
Yup, forced disppearance is typically an act of extrajudicial killing where the state responsible simply does its nasty business without any acknowledgement that they had anything to do with it.

If people being visited by their mothers in prison, or are appealing their detention, or any other situation that involves anyone but the guilty party knowing what happened to the victim, then it isn't forced disappearance.

Vixen's conspiracy theory now seems to rest on simply wilfully refusing to understand anything that might go against her incoherent mess of ideas.
Click to expand...


“Now”?
 
Vixen said:
Not specifically Y64, but a helicopter, or two.
Click to expand...
So if it wasn't specifically Y64 that was your supposed earlier flight that disappeared the crew, then why was Svensson given a medal as compensation for what his actions in disappearing the crew?

Why weren't the crews of your imaginary earlier flight given medals to compensate them?

Also, was Svensson singled out for a medal as compensation? He was, as you say, part of a search and rescue team. He couldn't have disappeared the crew on his own, the rest of the crew would have known what happened and were equally culpable, so why weren't they compensated with medals?

This nonsense doesn't even come close to passing the smell test.
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.

Back
Top Bottom