Cont: The Sinking of MS Estonia: Case Re-opened Part IV

[LondonJohn]

Nobody said it was sinister. However, to a serious criminal gang or a terrorist-type, 70 police together - whether admin or on the beat - as a group they could be seen to be an easy target. Hatred of the police can be extremely strong.

Not saying that is the case.

But you're at least opening up the suggestion that some individual or group with a grudge against the Swedish police found out (somehow) that a group of administrators linked to the Swedish police (but who weren't even actually police officers themselves) were going to be aboard the Estonia that night, and that this individual or group consequently decided to engineer the sinking of the entire ship in some form of revenge....?

We're entering the realms of severe CT disturbance at this point.

 

[JayUtah]

They are not governed by Rupert Murdoch-type ideals to put weight behind a particular political view.

This has nothing to do with political slant or tabloid tactics. It has to do with the reliability of information early in the unfolding of a tragedy. Referring back to information that may have been superseded by later information is dishonest.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

If it is the case that those so-called 'missing Estonian Survivors' 'never had their names taken down wrongly it is just rumour and gossip', then how come the police themselves issued an International Arrest Warrant for Avo Piht.

Why for Piht and not for Andresson? How would they know he was alive unless someone somewhere DID take his details as having survived?

Is it inconceivable they issued a warrant against a missing man they wanted, in case he turned up alive somewhere?

 

[LondonJohn]

Do...do you not understand that there's a difference between "someone who works for the police" and "police officers"? You could accurately label anyone who works for the police as police but only police officers would be police officers.

Exactly.

As a corollary: I've spent a fair chunk of my career working in investment banking - as an investment banker. And I'm always amused whenever certain people who've made the news (usually for unedifying reasons) are labelled as "investment bankers" by the media.

What's usually actually happening is that the media have found out - correctly - that people work for a given investment bank.... but then they make the unwarranted leap to assume that all employees of an investment bank are investment bankers. Whereas I can virtually guarantee (and know for a fact wrt one instance in particular) that in most cases these people are back-office staff rather than bankers.

 

[junkshop]

Where did you get nonsense from? The ventilation ducts ran along the middle of the vessel from forward to aft. See here Car Decks 3 and 4, and you will see that for the ventilation ducts to get flooded, the car deck doors need first to be breached.

Ventilation ducts in orange. Source: Kehren dissertation

A few points:

1. Your first image is titled "flooded ventilation ducts and compartments.

2. These ducts and compartments are described as flooded, so (if you are right) the car deck doors must have been breached.

3. Your link doesn't work

 

[Reformed Offlian]

Is it inconceivable they issued a warrant against a missing man they wanted, in case he turned up alive somewhere?

Vixen keeps using that word...

But seriously, it seems a fairly obvious possibility that the Estonian authorities were simply trying their luck.

Edited by zooterkin: 

Do not alter other member's names in order to ridicule or insult them.

 

[Andy_Ross]

Where did you get nonsense from? The ventilation ducts ran along the middle of the vessel from forward to aft. See here Car Decks 3 and 4, and you will see that for the ventilation ducts to get flooded, the car deck doors need first to be breached.

Ventilation ducts in orange. Source: Kehren dissertation

Why do car deck doors need to be breached for ventilators to flood?
Ventilators aren’t behind doors, if they are they aren’t ventilating.
A ship has lots of ventilators for engines, generators, air conditioning, galleys, and fresh air systems.
Engine Rooms have huge ventilators and electric turbo fans and equally large air and machinery exhausts.
They are not watertight from above.

 

[Here_to_learn]

So tell me, are you saying that these guys had nothing to do with the police but were simply working for a trade union?

No I'm not.

 

[Here_to_learn]

From your own referenced article:
Question: so why do they keep being referred to as police if they are not police?

Sorry, are you claiming they went to Tallinn to have a shop floor union meeting?

So the party of 68 were not police officers? So why does Here_to_Learn's link describe them as police and not trade union officials.

I just want to clarify whether they worked for a trade union or whether they are police (civilian or otherwise) who happened to be shop stewards or whatever.

There are some occupations where it is mandatory to join the union or professional body that goes with that job.

First of all, they are not "shop stewards" or have a "shop floor union meeting", for the simple reason that they are from Sweden. They are "fackliga representanter" and the went to a "facklig konferens".

You cannot and should not try to understand this from any other context than then Swedish legal an cultural one. Don't try to translate this into whatever legal and cultural context happen to come first in mind for you.

A direct translation of "facklig representant" is "union representative". This does not mean that it in any way can be compared with the situation in any other country, labor laws are different, and the way unions are set up is not the same.

There are not enough details in the sources I have seen to be able to fully identify if 100% of the participants were employed by the Swedish police (as civil servants), or if one or more were employed by the union. The unions employ specialists in different subjects, so it's not impossible that some of those joined the conference to assist the union representatives from the police organisation that was discussing the reorganisation.

And to understand why the union would discuss such a topic you need to understand what MBL is, and why that is important in Sweden. However, I cannot see why an explanation of that has anything to do with M/S Estonia.

 

[Mojo]

What? I simply said that disappearing suspects was a recognised happening, hence the Rome Treaty.

"The fact there is a Treaty 1988 (Criminal Law) that forbids the disappearance of suspects, must mean that it had been happening."

In the context you posted that in, what you claimed “had been happening” was Sweden disappearing people. And here’s what you said about it only yesterday:

It shows it wouldn't be the first time Sweden 'disappeared' suspects at the request of the CIA (as it did with the two Egyptians in 2001).

That’s a clear claim that the Rome Statute says that Sweden disappeared people.

The very next subsection of the Statute after the one about disappearances is about apartheid. Do you think that it shows that Sweden had been operating an apartheid system?

 

[Here_to_learn]

analysgruppen, SOU 1998:132 Örn commission report p 28 -30

https://www.riksdagen.se/sv/dokumen...ga-utredningar/sou-1998-132-d1_GMB3132d1/html

Bildt based his theory on the testimony of those two Estonian athletes who said they climbed down the car ramp.

Right, let's see what your source really say:

Page 28 is about "the Governments work during the afternoon and evening of sep 28th"

It starts off with the information that right efter 12 noon, Carl Bildt takes a flight to Turku. On the flight Bildt gets briefed on experiences from the Jan Heweliusz accident, specifically with regards to expected reactions from family members.

It is also mentioned that during the flight TT (A Swedish news agency) had a flash that "a crew from M/S Estonia claims having seen the bow port open"

On Page 29 we learn that that media is waiting at the Turku airport, where Bildt explains that an Accident Investigation will take place, and that "Statens haverikommision" is the Swedish government agency that will take part. He makes a point to describe that is important to find out what happened, so be able to avoid a something like this happening again.

After that the three PMs meet and get briefed, and then had a private discussion to decide on responsibilities.

After that the PMs met with survivors at the hospital. Bildt meets with three Swedish passengers, while Mart Laar meets with three Estonian crew that describes that a wave had lifted the bow visor from below.

After this there was a press conference, and the report focus on the "recovery" at this stage.

Finally on page 29, continuing on to P30 is the following text:

Statsminister Carl Bildt vill ha en undersökning av passagerarfärjors konstruktion

Från flygplatsen inför hemresan ringer statsminister Carl Bildt upp Mats Odell. Statsministern vill att det ska under- sökas om andra passagerarfärjor i drift är konstruerade på samma sätt som Estonia. Uppgifterna från de överlevande besättningsmännen, om att bogporten ”lyfts underifrån” kan tyda på ett konstruktionsfel. Kommunikations- ministern får i uppgift att kontakta Sjöfartsverket. Därefter ringer statsminister Carl Bildt till Hans Laidwa på rederiet och informerar om denna åtgärd.

My translation:

"Prime Minister Carl Bildt wants an investigation into the construction of passenger ferries

From the airport before the return journey, Prime Minister Carl Bildt calls Mats Odell. The Prime Minister wants it to be investigated whether other passenger ferries in operation are designed in the same way as Estonia. The information from the surviving crew members, that the bow gate is "lifted from below" may indicate a design defect. The Minister of Communications is instructed to contact the Swedish Maritime Administration. Then Prime Minister Carl Bildt calls Hans Laidwa at the shipping company and informs about this measure."

The rest of p30 is about recovery of bodies and of the wreck, as well as discussion on the legal aspect.

No press release
No Bildt announcing the cause of the accident
No Bildt declaring the cause of the accident

Now, those that are prone to self-hurt may want to see how the "German group of experts" spin this. Then go to: https://www.estoniaferrydisaster.net/chapter21/21-0.html

If you want to see how Anders Björkman spins it you can read at: https://heiwaco.com/visoronbottom.htm

Vixens spin can be read in this thread.

 

[Here_to_learn]

Lehtola is the appointed JAIC spokesperson. He is speaking on behalf of Bildt...

No he is not. He is speaking on behalf of the JAIC.

 

[Mojo]

How is the Rome Statue of the International Criminal Court evidence that Sweden disappeared suspects at the request of the CIA?

Please do not put words in my mouth, or twist what I said.

Again, that’s a claim that you have clearly made. You have made an unsupportable claim, and rather than admit it you are trying to pretend that you never made it. The gaslighting isn’t going to work, especially when it’s too late for you to disappear your claims.

ETA: here’s your claim again, just in case you’ve forgotten it since it was last posted:

It shows it wouldn't be the first time Sweden 'disappeared' suspects at the request of the CIA (as it did with the two Egyptians in 2001).

 

[Matthew Best]

Misspelled patent - that’s just perfect “evidence” for something.

Were the Amanda Knox threads this level of epic fail? It’s just pathetic.

Yes, they were. You may now be beginning to understand why that thread has gone on for so long.

 

[Andy_Ross]

It is also mentioned that during the flight TT (A Swedish news agency) had a flash that "a crew from M/S Estonia claims having seen the bow port open"

Mart Laar meets with three Estonian crew that describes that a wave had lifted the bow visor from below.

That can't be right.

Vixen has told us that none of the survivors spoke a word to anyone when they were rescued.

 

[Here_to_learn]

That can't be right.

Vixen has told us that none of the survivors spoke a word to anyone when they were rescued.

Well, I can only share a little from the evaluation of the helicopters where the crews report that they were unhappy with having to go past media representatives when going to debriefing (page 7, chapter 9.1), and that they had media onboard on some of the flights (page 8, chapter 10)

 

[Andy_Ross]

Well, I can only share a little from the evaluation of the helicopters where the crews report that they were unhappy with having to go past media representatives when going to debriefing (page 7, chapter 9.1), and that they had media onboard on some of the flights (page 8, chapter 10)

Yes, it's covered in the recommendations section of the report and supporting documents

 

[Here_to_learn]

Yes, it's covered in the recommendations section of the report and supporting documents

Ah, that's where I've seen it also, thanks!

 

[Vixen]

I read your link.

It does not say Bildt insisted on day 1 the bow visor was the cause as you claim.

It does not say Estonian PM Laar said so in an interview as you claim. In fact it describes his being told by 3 Estonian survivors of a wave which lifted the bow visor, which would preclude his being astounded to hear the same claim repeated by Bildt.

It does not say Bildt formed a theory based on two Estonian athletes who described climbing down the ramp, as you claim.

In what way did you think your reference supports your claims because it looks like a big fat zero from here.

It very clearly says:

New meeting with the media

At the airport, the group meets a media gathering and to the assembled press, Prime Minister Carl Bildt says that the government has commissioned the Swedish Accident Investigation Board to assist, especially Estonia, in an investigation of the accident. He emphasizes that it is important to find out what has happened, among other things in order to find out what can be done to prevent a recurrence.

During the flight comes a TT flash. A surviving crew member says he saw that Estonia's bow gates were open.

Review of the rescue service's command center



Finnish and Estonian Prime Ministers Esko Aho and Mart Laar are waiting for Prime Minister Carl Bildt at the rescue service's command center. The three prime ministers are given an overview of the rescue operation and information that no one can live at the depth that it is estimated at this stage that the ship is at.

ibid


Note the inclusion of the sentence, "During the flight comes a TT flash. A surviving crew member says he saw that Estonia's bow gates were open." to try to link in the reader's mind to Carl Bildt.

Really? Bildt was informed by a news agency? Can you imagine the Prime Minister or President of a country would get his or her information from a hack? Do Boris Johnson, Macron, Trudeau, Putin or Joe Biden get their information from Reuters, TASS or AP News...?

No, of course they do not. These guys have direct pagers with their Defence forces! Remember that time the USSR president was ready to activate a nuclear trigger in his brief case, due to a false alarm caused by a straying aircraft? Was he informed of this incursion by TASSA? Don't be silly!

 

[Vixen]

Vixen, be honest here, is this all a wind up?

Speak for yourself.