• Quick note - the problem with Youtube videos not embedding on the forum appears to have been fixed, thanks to ZiprHead. If you do still see problems let me know.

Trump Sues Bolton over Book Release

Dr. Keith said:
No, Bolton has one vote and the spotlight on him as he explains who he is voting for and why. If he wanted to make sure Trump lost then he would use his limited time in the spotlight to make the case for conservatives voting for Biden.
Click to expand...


No. You are mistaken in the idea that there is only one way to make sure Trump loses. There are at least two. One is to work to increase the number of votes Biden gets. Another is to decrease the number of votes Trump gets.

If someone can convince voters not to vote for Trump and to vote for Biden, that's great. But in the case of many potential Trump voters, it may be simpler and more achievable to simply get them to decide not to vote for Trump.

For some strong conservatives, thinking they have to vote for Biden if they don't vote for Trump may be a bridge too far. And if they think there are only two choices -- vote Biden or vote Trump -- and the more they think about Biden, the more they can't stand the thought of voting for him -- then that potential non-vote for Trump may switch back to a vote for Trump come election day.

So it makes sense for those who genuinely like what Joe Biden stands for and who genuinely like what they think he'll do if he's elected to make the case for people to vote for Joe Biden. Those folks are in a good position to make a strong and believable case for why they think Biden would be a good president and is well worth voting for.

And it makes sense for those who genuinely detest what Trump is doing and genuinely think we can't afford to have him continue being president to make the case for people not to vote for Trump. Those folks are in a good position to make a strong and believable case for why re-electing Trump is a mistake we can't afford to make.

Bolton appears to fall into the second category. He's not speaking out against Trump because he thinks Biden is great, he's speaking out because he thinks Trump is a disaster. That puts him in a good position to reach other conservatives who also aren't particularly keen on Biden but who can possibly be persuaded that keeping Trump in the White House is worse than having Biden in it.

My impression, and I could be wrong as I don't watch a lot of news, is that Bolton didn't go out of his way to say he doesn't plan to vote for Biden; he was asked by a reporter whether he planned to vote for Biden and he answered the question. But if our aim is seeing Trump defeated, then the answer he gave, that he doesn't plan to vote for Biden, is probably a better one for achieving that end. The people Bolton may be able to reach are people who aren't fond of Biden but are having doubts about Trump -- doubts someone like Bolton, who feels the same way, can help magnify until they make the decision not to vote for Trump. But if Bolton appears to be saying he likes Biden stands for, he'll be moving away from rather than drawing closer to those people. He'll be making himself someone they'll be less likely to listen to and someone who will be less able to convince them.

Segnosaur said that if someone says they don't plan to vote for Biden then they're lying if they say they don't want Trump re-elected. I'm saying that's wrong. It's quite possible to honestly not want to see Trump re-elected but to be unwilling to vote for Joe Biden.

If enough people can be convinced not to vote for Trump, then Joe Biden will win. And John Bolton appears to be working hard to convince people not to vote for Trump. If you really want to see Trump defeated, then calling people like Bolton -- people who plan not to vote for Trump and who are encouraging others not to vote for Trump -- insulting terms like liars and idiots is not a very good approach.
 
acbytesla said:
I believe he lives in Arlington so, in our screwed up election system, who he votes for won't matter. Virginia isn't in play this election.
Click to expand...
It's not in play?
Click to expand...
Last opinion poll for Virginia had Biden up by ~10 points.

To me though, even if its unlikely to make a difference in the electoral college (or in the senate), I still think there is value in voting Democrat.

The republicans need to not only be beaten, but completely decimated, as a clear message from the voters that corruption is not to be tolerated, either from the president, or from a complicit senate. They need to see their support drop everywhere, so that they don't get it through their heads that they can regain power by cheating like they have in the past (but just "cheat better").

If its a state that the democrats will probably win? Still good to see more Democratic votes, to tell the republicans "You will never have a chance here unless you change". If its a solid republican state? Still good to see more Democratic votes, to hopefully send the message that "your control is slipping... do better".

Bolton's "I won't vote Democrat" won't help the Republicans, but it won't hurt them much either.
 
I agree with Nova Land that there are a lot of Republicans who don't care for Trump but, for various reasons, won't vote for Biden. It's better they feel they can legitimately not vote for Trump but not vote for Biden. I think a lot of people, Dems and GOP, felt that way in 2016. They either didn't vote at all or wrote in a name.
 
First, I'm glad you came back. Your long posts are some of the few long posts I read around here.

Nova Land said:
No. You are mistaken in the idea that there is only one way to make sure Trump loses. There are at least two. One is to work to increase the number of votes Biden gets. Another is to decrease the number of votes Trump gets.
Click to expand...

The way I see it he can take a full swing at Trump by encouraging other to vote for Biden, or he can take a jab at Trump by encouraging others to write in another conservative. He chose to take a jab instead of a full swing.

Maybe you are right, maybe he will convince some who aren't ready to take a full swing that they too can just take a jab.

Maybe I just hope you are right.
 
Segnosaur said:
Last opinion poll for Virginia had Biden up by ~10 points.

To me though, even if its unlikely to make a difference in the electoral college (or in the senate), I still think there is value in voting Democrat.

The republicans need to not only be beaten, but completely decimated, as a clear message from the voters that corruption is not to be tolerated, either from the president, or from a complicit senate. They need to see their support drop everywhere, so that they don't get it through their heads that they can regain power by cheating like they have in the past (but just "cheat better").

If its a state that the democrats will probably win? Still good to see more Democratic votes, to tell the republicans "You will never have a chance here unless you change". If its a solid republican state? Still good to see more Democratic votes, to hopefully send the message that "your control is slipping... do better".

Bolton's "I won't vote Democrat" won't help the Republicans, but it won't hurt them much either.
Click to expand...
It's early. Likely to tighten up.
 
acbytesla said:
It's not in play?
Click to expand...

Biden is at 50-51 and Trump is high 30s to low forties. A motivated black turnout and equally motivated turnout from the government sector keeps Virginia safely blue. Clinton won it by six percent with a lot of the black vote staying home. Call me crazy but I don't think black voters will stay home. Dems control the election process so though districts are gerrymandered, it won't matter and voter suppression won't be an issue.
 
I've just watched Stephen Colbert's interview with John Bolton - what a despicable human being John Bolton is.
 
The Don said:
I've just watched Stephen Colbert's interview with John Bolton - what a despicable human being John Bolton is.
Click to expand...

Not sure I've ever seen Colbert going so easy on someone.

Bolton made it clear that he prefers a treasonous Republican over an upstanding Democrat.
That his responsibility to address corruption in the White House ends with telling the White House lawyers.

Bolton wants power without accountability, just like every other Republican supporting Trump.
 
Nova Land said:
What would be much more helpful would be working months ahead of the election on effective efforts to persuade people to vote for Biden.
Click to expand...

By, say, being a prominent conservative and publicly saying that you will vote for Biden, thereby influencing other conservatives to follow your lead? As opposed to publicly saying that you will not, thereby discouraging other conservatives from following your lead.
 
sackett said:
500 clams for a bootleg copy? Ooooaw! How I'd love to purchase one or two friends in that warehouse!

Just one pallet. Just one.

After suborning a few hundred reporters, I could finish with a good shower. I think I'd need one.
Click to expand...
It was floating around the 'net last week.
 
The Great Zaganza said:
Not sure I've ever seen Colbert going so easy on someone.

Bolton made it clear that he prefers a treasonous Republican over an upstanding Democrat.
That his responsibility to address corruption in the White House ends with telling the White House lawyers.

Bolton wants power without accountability, just like every other Republican supporting Trump.
Click to expand...

This assumes Bolton thinks Biden is an upstanding democrat (or that upstanding democrat is a not evil).
 
BobTheCoward said:
This assumes Bolton thinks Biden is an upstanding democrat (or that upstanding democrat is a not evil).
Click to expand...

He said about Biden, unlike Trump who he called incompetent, easily fooled and fundamentally corrupt.

No, Bolton explicitly puts Party before Country, and proudly so.

His argument against the Impeachment was that Democrats didn't ask nicely.
 
The Don said:
I've just watched Stephen Colbert's interview with John Bolton - what a despicable human being John Bolton is.
Click to expand...

I've stopped listening to his book. I had enough at the point where he described a plan to attack North Korea, engage in regime change and spoke with such certainty as to how China and North Korea would react. This would be the same failing he had with Iraq.

He complains about the intellectual laziness in others but there's no evidence he's applied an ounce of brain power to the possibility of enemy courses of action other than conforms with his plan. China and North Korea having both nuclear and chemical weapons have a variety of courses of action available to them that deserve more consideration than Bolton's hand waive. Unlike a mature adult, Bolton is untutored by his failures.
 
Craig4 said:
I've stopped listening to his book. I had enough at the point where he described a plan to attack North Korea, engage in regime change and spoke with such certainty as to how China and North Korea would react. This would be the same failing he had with Iraq.

He complains about the intellectual laziness in others but there's no evidence he's applied an ounce of brain power to the possibility of enemy courses of action other than conforms with his plan. China and North Korea having both nuclear and chemical weapons have a variety of courses of action available to them that deserve more consideration than Bolton's hand waive. Unlike a mature adult, Bolton is untutored by his failures.
Click to expand...
Of course, from his perspective the thing the US did wrongly in Iraq was not to hand the Iraqis the broken thing earlier.:mad:
 
Yet more legal stuff regarding the book:

from: Politico
A new lawsuit is seeking to lay bare how the White House censored former national security adviser John Bolton’s book and whether the passages officials wanted deleted were true national security secrets or just embarrassing to President Donald Trump.
The Freedom of Information act lawsuit filed early Thursday in Washington demands details on the prepublication review process ...

In this case, its not Bolton who is involved in the lawsuit, but other groups concerned about government transparency.

(The article suggests that there may be problems with the request, since the NSC is less responsive than other government groups/agencies.)
 
The Great Zaganza said:
He said about Biden, unlike Trump who he called incompetent, easily fooled and fundamentally corrupt.

No, Bolton explicitly puts Party before Country, and proudly so.

His argument against the Impeachment was that Democrats didn't ask nicely.
Click to expand...

How do you know he doesn't think the country is best served by the republican party?
 
BobTheCoward said:
How do you know he doesn't think the country is best served by the republican party?
Click to expand...


It's not about the GOP, since the GOP, especially according to Bolton, is not currently in charge, Trump is - everything bad that has happened under him is the fault of RINOs, i.e. Republicans unlike Bolton.

Bolton doesn't consider Trump to be a Republican, but would rather have a GOP led by Trump than give the Dems a win.
The good of the country doesn't come into it, not for Bolton, not for any Republican objecting to Trump's impeachment.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Back
Top Bottom