Birthright Citizenship

[rdwight]

Then step up to the plate with your verification. That would be much better than pretending your assertion is inherently better than that of someone else because reasons.

So no one here can actually refute anything with their own sources ever it seems. I find it tiresome to back every fact only to end up with people going 'ok but what about..' and never reaching any level of statistical basis for their 'feelings'.

Next time I'll know to keep all sources I reference in a notepad so that I can be refuted by.. well let's see if anyone shares a single source that supports their point and discounts mine. Seems no one else has to source every assertion here when it matches the consensus of the community's feelings.

I'll get my sources together again tomorrow if i have the time but the general jist is simply illegal immigrant parents claim benefits on behalf of their US citizen children at a much higher rate than native born/legal immigrants due to their economic class. Specifically medicaid and food assistance. Their cost to state and local resources is also elevated.

 

[rdwight]

I'll shove this train back on the rails in the most direct way I know how.

For the sake of argument, I will grant that children of immigrant are a bigger drain than children of non-immigrants.

Given that this is a thread about whether or not children of immigrants should be granted citizenship by birth, please explain to me how removing birthright citizenship would (or would not) affect this fact.

Personally, I don't really see what one has to do with the other. Maybe we're actually in agreement.

As I said earlier in the thread, removing birth right citizenship and implementing a more staggered approach granting guarantees at certain age and residency requirements as is the case in other countries that don't match our approach to this would lower social service costs and hopefully deter bad child bearing decisions. I do not know the costs to implement any such specific plan and what savings would be realized by it as I said to Dr. Keith.

 

[WilliamSeger]

To me, it's an argument for granting citizenship (or at least permanent resident status) more liberally. If it's true that children of illegal immigrants cost society more than other children, then isn't the most likely source of the drain the fact that the family doesn't have the same opportunities available to them due to their legal status? Change that status and we potentially gain two fully participating and productive members of society (mother and father) whose contributions will easily offset any "drain" caused by the child.

I have to say, though, I find this "drain" talk to be straight ******* nonsense. It's not like they're going to graduate high school and take their diploma back to their parents' country of origin.

Yes, that's the point of being explicit about what you hope to accomplish by changing the law, not just assume it's true and base your opinion on that.

 

[WilliamSeger]

So no one here can actually refute anything with their own sources ever it seems. I find it tiresome to back every fact only to end up with people going 'ok but what about..' and never reaching any level of statistical basis for their 'feelings'.

Next time I'll know to keep all sources I reference in a notepad so that I can be refuted by.. well let's see if anyone shares a single source that supports their point and discounts mine. Seems no one else has to source every assertion here when it matches the consensus of the community's feelings.

I'll get my sources together again tomorrow if i have the time but the general jist is simply illegal immigrant parents claim benefits on behalf of their US citizen children at a much higher rate than native born/legal immigrants due to their economic class. Specifically medicaid and food assistance. Their cost to state and local resources is also elevated.

I don't need statistics to show that as a group, children of illegal immigrants cost society more than average. I'll accept that, but that's not because they're illegal immigrants; it's because their parents are poor and less able to provide support. Even if you are only concerned about economics, the justification for providing support for poor kids is that if doing so will make for more productive citizens, we come out money ahead when they have to pay taxes. So why should immigrants' kids be a special case?

 

[Minoosh]

It is verifiable fact they are a net drain on society.

This point is not as cut-and-dried as you seem to think. You'll find numerous arguments against that "fact." They pay into Social Security, but will never benefit from it. And demographically the U.S. actually needs more young citizens. The Armed Forces at one point were eager to see immigration reform that would help recruiting. Food prices remain low partly due to immigration. To get to the "net" figure, you need to look at benefits, not just costs.

 

[Bob001]

Trump's proposal is just pure us vs. them racism.

Underlying this push to end birthright citizenship is a form of virulent xenophobic ethno-nationalism that seeks to roll back the country’s evolving racial and ethnic mix, something Trump confirmed with his private “s—hole countries” comment. But Trump can’t say this out loud. Thus he is now applying to these U.S. citizens the same argument he has long applied to undocumented immigrants: They, too, are a menace to your economic well-being. They will take what’s yours.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/blog...port-his-latest-hate-narrative/?noredirect=on

 

[rdwight]

I don't need statistics to show that as a group, children of illegal immigrants cost society more than average. I'll accept that, but that's not because they're illegal immigrants; it's because their parents are poor and less able to provide support. Even if you are only concerned about economics, the justification for providing support for poor kids is that if doing so will make for more productive citizens, we come out money ahead when they have to pay taxes. So why should immigrants' kids be a special case?

I don't think we are working in the same direction in this discussion. You concede my point but ignore it's purpose.

 

[carlitos]

I'm waiting for someone to show me how much babies "cost." Given our centuries-long trend of population growth and economic progress, I don't believe that babies born in America "cost" anything, but contribute to our economic growth, albeit at different rates. If I'm wrong, I'd love to read about it here.

 

[rdwight]

This point is not as cut-and-dried as you seem to think. You'll find numerous arguments against that "fact." They pay into Social Security, but will never benefit from it. And demographically the U.S. actually needs more young citizens. The Armed Forces at one point were eager to see immigration reform that would help recruiting. Food prices remain low partly due to immigration. To get to the "net" figure, you need to look at benefits, not just costs.

Please cite your source that US citizens born to illegal immigrant parents pay into SS but won't benefit from it. Also please tell me why we need those new young citizens to be obtained through this method, and not say, through increasing legal immigration quotas through people vetted not to be as large a strain on social services.

Obviously I know you are trying to conflate a separate discussion into this one, just not sure why.

 

[WilliamSeger]

I don't think we are working in the same direction in this discussion. You concede my point but ignore it's purpose.

Which was... ?

 

[Belz...]

If you want to contend my point, please provide any facts that refute my position.

Isn't it usually your job to support your own claims?

I find it tiresome to back every fact only to end up with people going 'ok but what about..' and never reaching any level of statistical basis for their 'feelings'.

"Boo! Why do I have to prove what I claim? That's not fair!"

 

[Dr. Keith]

I'm waiting for someone to show me how much babies "cost." Given our centuries-long trend of population growth and economic progress, I don't believe that babies born in America "cost" anything, but contribute to our economic growth, albeit at different rates. If I'm wrong, I'd love to read about it here.

If you look at the costs as certain and the benefits as hypothetical, thus ignoring the economic history of our country, then it makes perfect sense. Come on man, this is science.

 

[rdwight]

Isn't it usually your job to support your own claims?

Source?

 

[rdwight]

A simple visual on medicaid and snap usage. As I said, elevated rates of usage. Things like this are the costs associated with current policy. That is why i said this comes down to more a moral question that a statistical one.

Edit to add - Graph pulled from Here

 

[carlitos]

No link.

"Source: Authors' analysis"

Can you please add more detail?

 

[Belz...]

Source?

You want me to source my question?


Or maybe you just don't understand how this whole concept of reason, science and skepticism works.

You made the claim, you support it. Don't ask other people to prove you wrong. That's woo/CT nonsense.

 

[Minoosh]

Please cite your source that US citizens born to illegal immigrant parents pay into SS but won't benefit from it.

From The Atlantic

In fact, illegal immigration is considered largely responsible for the mushrooming of the file, with undocumented workers paying billions in taxes for retirement benefits they will likely never receive.

Also please tell me why we need those new young citizens to be obtained through this method, and not say, through increasing legal immigration quotas through people vetted not to be as large a strain on social services.

By that reasoning it's legitimate to argue that no one should have kids - they're expensive little buggers, and why produce more when we can import people who are already educated and can immediately pay taxes?

The "conflation" is happening partly out of frustration that you make a claim but will not cite your sources. Also, I didn't say we need those young citizens, but in fact we need some.

But I admit some of my stance is emotional, based on knowing hundreds of kids born in the U.S. to immigrant parents, and my conviction that they are as American as anyone else. They are certainly as American as a 25-year-old IT worker from India, and in some circles you'll find criticism of skilled immigrants as well, on the general idea that they are crowding American workers out of the field. Not that I believe that; I bring this up just to illustrate that once you start really looking at immigration dynamics, you'll find arguments that don't fit your claim that illegal immigration is a net cost to society. For example, it keeps labor costs down - which is one reason Republicans from farm states helped defeat immigration reform, earlier this year: They did not want to be required to vet applicants through E-Verify.

I don't have kids; I'm subsidizing OPBs - other people's babies - and I'm willing to do this because I want American children to be educated, no matter who their parents are.

 

[Belz...]

I don't have kids; I'm subsidizing OPBs - other people's babies - and I'm willing to do this because I want American children to be educated, no matter who their parents are.

That's nonsense! I have it on good authority that childless people don't care about the future of the country.

 

[carlitos]

I think you missed a point here.

Please cite your source that US citizens born to illegal immigrant parents pay into SS but won't benefit from it.

From The Atlantic

In fact, illegal immigration is considered largely responsible for the mushrooming of the file, with undocumented workers paying billions in taxes for retirement benefits they will likely never receive.

 

[Bob001]

Assume for the sake of argument that "birthright" citizenship was abolished. What would be the criteria for awarding U.S. citizenship, what would be the mechanism for proving that a baby born in the U.S. is in fact a U.S. citizen, and what would happen to babies that were not determined to be U.S. citizens? Keep in mind that the process and those decisions would have to be applied four million times a year, and would certainly require additional levels of appeal and review.
https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/births.htm