Birthright Citizenship

[Bob001]

Some do just as some people withhold sales tax and with no intention of remitting it all to the state.
From my experience it is more often a case of cash flow problems that get out of hand rather than toward illegal aliens. People are short the money one quarter or whenever the taxes are do they think I will catch up next time but if the business doesn't turn around they never do.

Sure, some employers don't meet their tax obligations. The question was who deliberately steals the payroll taxes specifically from undocumented employees?

 

[xjx388]

Sure, some employers don't meet their tax obligations. The question was who deliberately steals the payroll taxes specifically from undocumented employees?

Well, in my experience in SoTx, it's been rich people from Mexico who own businesses here. They hire illegal immigrants and thoroughly rip them off (not just "payroll taxes", BTW) because they know they can. They threaten them with deportation if they say anything. Quite common here, unfortunately.

I think it's even more common, however, to have an under-the-table arrangement. So many of the more well-off people here have live-in maids from Mexico (who are underpaid and are functionally indentured servants) and don't report the payments. Or, subcontractors (painters, roofers, etc) pay illegal immigrants under the table at a below-minimum rate and pocket the profits.

I can't really tell you how it works up North, but I'm going to guess that most illegal immigrants who work there 1)Are paid under the table , 2)Get an Individual Taxpayer Number so they can legitimately pay taxes or 3)Use a SSN that is stolen, from a dead person or just flat out fake. I agree with the sentiment that we have to get serious about enforcement at the employer level. Start randomly auditing companies for compliance with I-9 forms, for one thing. Mandate E-Verify, for another, better option. If we did that, we'd be taking away a big incentive to cross over in the first place.

 

[Elagabalus]

And Obama. When will Trump declare that kids get the citizenship of their father? And retroactively make Obama a green card alien. Cause the mom at least was American.

This of course automatically repeals Obamacare.
/sarcasm

You know ... I think THAT might actually be Trump's endgame.

 

[LSSBB]

Well, in my experience in SoTx, it's been rich people from Mexico who own businesses here. They hire illegal immigrants and thoroughly rip them off (not just "payroll taxes", BTW) because they know they can. They threaten them with deportation if they say anything. Quite common here, unfortunately.

I think it's even more common, however, to have an under-the-table arrangement. So many of the more well-off people here have live-in maids from Mexico (who are underpaid and are functionally indentured servants) and don't report the payments. Or, subcontractors (painters, roofers, etc) pay illegal immigrants under the table at a below-minimum rate and pocket the profits.

I can't really tell you how it works up North, but I'm going to guess that most illegal immigrants who work there 1)Are paid under the table , 2)Get an Individual Taxpayer Number so they can legitimately pay taxes or 3)Use a SSN that is stolen, from a dead person or just flat out fake. I agree with the sentiment that we have to get serious about enforcement at the employer level. Start randomly auditing companies for compliance with I-9 forms, for one thing. Mandate E-Verify, for another, better option. If we did that, we'd be taking away a big incentive to cross over in the first place.

That's exactly how I see it. If you step up enforcement, you cut off incentive. I'm not opposed to making the Taxpayer ID only available to citizens or legal residents. Heck, I'd actually prefer a national ID based database with birth and residency registry, however I know that won't fly.

 

[WilliamSeger]

Well, not to answer for Joe . . .

I'm not sure I understand this "if the US were a different place with a different history and political reality," argument. It certainly hasn't stopped Congress from proposing and even passing laws that break from our history and political reality.

Secondly, we can certainly talk about how to move forward without the "But Trump is dumb if he thinks he can EO it away!" arguments. That's what the other thread is for, which I have avoided because I'm not interested in arguing about Trump or what he thinks. I'm interested in moving towards reforming immigration. And you are right, we do need to discuss the current environment, but I'm confident we can do that without invoking the "But Trump . . ." crap.

Finally, I think it's entirely fair to characterize many of the arguments here as "Ending birthright citizenship is motivated by racism." I don't think asking questions like "What color are the babies," moves us forward at all. I am certainly not motivated by racism, being descended from people who came over from Mexico and having brown skin.

Or maybe nativism or nationalism -- the shared characteristics of all three are chauvinism and xenophobia -- and I do believe that's the underlying basis of most objections (not necessarily yours) to birthright citizenship. Even if other rationalizations are offered, there seems to be a presumption that babies from illegal immigrants don't "deserve" citizenship and/or they are a net drain on society, but I haven't yet seen adequate justification for either premise.

 

[xjx388]

Or maybe nativism or nationalism -- the shared characteristics of all three are chauvinism and xenophobia -- and I do believe that's the underlying basis of most objections (not necessarily yours) to birthright citizenship. Even if other rationalizations are offered, there seems to be a presumption that babies from illegal immigrants don't "deserve" citizenship and/or they are a net drain on society, but I haven't yet seen adequate justification for either premise.

I have no illusions about the role of racism, et al in the national conversation about immigration. But my point is that if we are trying to discuss the concept and no one in the discussion has made a racist argument, it does no good to ascribe subtextual motives to people.

Address the arguments, not the assumed but unspoken motives behind them.


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[WilliamSeger]

I have no illusions about the role of racism, et al in the national conversation about immigration. But my point is that if we are trying to discuss the concept and no one in the discussion has made a racist argument, it does no good to ascribe subtextual motives to people.

Address the arguments, not the assumed but unspoken motives behind them.


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I tried to address the arguments when I asked for a moral reason why someone born in the same hospital as I should not have the same rights, and I didn't see any responses, so I haven't seen any reason to change my opinion: it's just not "right."

 

[xjx388]

I tried to address the arguments when I asked for a moral reason why someone born in the same hospital as I should not have the same rights, and I didn't see any responses, so I haven't seen any reason to change my opinion: it's just not "right."

See, I can’t argue feelings and morals. You have a right to those. You don’t have a right to impose them on others through national policy. Same goes for racists.

I can point out that in France, a kid born in a hospital to US citizen parents does not have the same rights as one born to French parents. I don’t think you’d successfully argue that the French are morally wrong or racists on that point.


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[WilliamSeger]

See, I can’t argue feelings and morals. You have a right to those. You don’t have a right to impose them on others through national policy. Same goes for racists.

I can point out that in France, a kid born in a hospital to US citizen parents does not have the same rights as one born to French parents. I don’t think you’d successfully argue that the French are morally wrong or racists on that point.


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I'm talking about "imposing" one of the fundamental tenets of liberal democracy -- I'd say the most fundamental -- but whatever. In the same post, I asked: "Or alternatively, can you tell me what problem you're solving with your proposal?" The only posts I've seen to address that seem to presume that babies born to illegal immigrants are a net drain on society or otherwise harmful is some way. I have yet to be convinced on that, either.

 

[I Am The Scum]

In the same post, I asked: "Or alternatively, can you tell me what problem you're solving with your proposal?"

This is pretty close to where I'm at.

A child is born in an American hospital. This newborn infant is going to be granted American citizenship. I'm trying to imagine the worst case scenario, and I'm left wanting.

Someone help me out here. Please propose a set of events, say... 30 years later where we would hang our heads and say, "If only we didn't have birthright citizenship in this country..."

 

[WilliamSeger]

See, I can’t argue feelings and morals. You have a right to those. You don’t have a right to impose them on others through national policy. Same goes for racists.
...

Here's a moral principle that we imposed on King George, btw: "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal..."

 

[rdwight]

In the same post, I asked: "Or alternatively, can you tell me what problem you're solving with your proposal?" The only posts I've seen to address that seem to presume that babies born to illegal immigrants are a net drain on society or otherwise harmful is some way. I have yet to be convinced on that, either.

This is one of the problems I encounter when having these discussions. Do you believe children born to illegal immigrants have no cost? It is verifiable fact they are a net drain on society. Morally, you can argue the cost is not as important, but that should be a separate discussion and should not lead people to deny facts. But that never seems to be the case.

 

[I Am The Scum]

This is one of the problems I encounter when having these discussions. Do you believe children born to illegal immigrants have no cost? It is verifiable fact they are a net drain on society.

You realize this is true of the children of legal residents too, right?

 

[rdwight]

You realize this is true of the children of legal residents too, right?

So there is no difference in cost between the two? Is it so hard to have an honest discussion about this stuff?

 

[I Am The Scum]

So there is no difference in cost between the two? Is it so hard to have an honest discussion about this stuff?

Three points spring to mind.

1. You're the one who poorly phrased your point. If you meant to say that immigrant children are more of a drain than non-immigrant children, you should have said so.

2. I'm not aware of any evidence that immigrant children are more of a drain. Maybe it's been posted in the thread and I missed it.

3. Even assuming immigrant children are a bigger drain, how does withholding their citizenship alleviate this problem? By giving us the opportunity to deport children?

 

[rdwight]

Three points spring to mind.

1. You're the one who poorly phrased your point. If you meant to say that immigrant children are more of a drain than non-immigrant children, you should have said so.

2. I'm not aware of any evidence that immigrant children are more of a drain. Maybe it's been posted in the thread and I missed it.

3. Even assuming immigrant children are a bigger drain, how does withholding their citizenship alleviate this problem? By giving us the opportunity to deport children?

This again makes discussion pointless since you intend to be dishonest about my response. I responded directly to someone who said they are not convinced they are a net drain. There is no reason I need to clarify they are more of a drain, when the comparison was added by you after the fact. And you avoid answering the direct question I asked in regards to your comment.

"You are not aware" is a complete ******** answer. If you want to contend my point, please provide any facts that refute my position. I can simply point to social services uses on behalf of illegal immigrant parents in regards to their citizen children. The percentages directly support my point. Go ahead and support yours. I'll wait.

As for your 3., please quote any portion of any statement I made that reflects your sentence. Again, no discussion can be had when there seems to be a quick break down into dishonesty.

 

[Babbylonian]

This is one of the problems I encounter when having these discussions. Do you believe children born to illegal immigrants have no cost? It is verifiable fact they are a net drain on society. Morally, you can argue the cost is not as important, but that should be a separate discussion and should not lead people to deny facts. But that never seems to be the case.

Then step up to the plate with your verification. That would be much better than pretending your assertion is inherently better than that of someone else because reasons.

 

[I Am The Scum]

This again makes discussion pointless since you intend to be dishonest about my response. I responded directly to someone who said they are not convinced they are a net drain. There is no reason I need to clarify they are more of a drain, when the comparison was added by you after the fact. And you avoid answering the direct question I asked in regards to your comment.

"You are not aware" is a complete ******** answer. If you want to contend my point, please provide any facts that refute my position. I can simply point to social services uses on behalf of illegal immigrant parents in regards to their citizen children. The percentages directly support my point. Go ahead and support yours. I'll wait.

As for your 3., please quote any portion of any statement I made that reflects your sentence. Again, no discussion can be had when there seems to be a quick break down into dishonesty.

I'll shove this train back on the rails in the most direct way I know how.

For the sake of argument, I will grant that children of immigrant are a bigger drain than children of non-immigrants.

Given that this is a thread about whether or not children of immigrants should be granted citizenship by birth, please explain to me how removing birthright citizenship would (or would not) affect this fact.

Personally, I don't really see what one has to do with the other. Maybe we're actually in agreement.

 

[WilliamSeger]

This is one of the problems I encounter when having these discussions. Do you believe children born to illegal immigrants have no cost? It is verifiable fact they are a net drain on society. Morally, you can argue the cost is not as important, but that should be a separate discussion and should not lead people to deny facts. But that never seems to be the case.

Donnie is scaring the flock by telling them we have to support these babies until they're 85, so let's take that time frame for discussing net drain. Where are the verifiable facts on that?

 

[Babbylonian]

I'll shove this train back on the rails in the most direct way I know how.

For the sake of argument, I will grant that children of immigrant are a bigger drain than children of non-immigrants.

Given that this is a thread about whether or not children of immigrants should be granted citizenship by birth, please explain to me how removing birthright citizenship would (or would not) affect this fact.

Personally, I don't really see what one has to do with the other. Maybe we're actually in agreement.

To me, it's an argument for granting citizenship (or at least permanent resident status) more liberally. If it's true that children of illegal immigrants cost society more than other children, then isn't the most likely source of the drain the fact that the family doesn't have the same opportunities available to them due to their legal status? Change that status and we potentially gain two fully participating and productive members of society (mother and father) whose contributions will easily offset any "drain" caused by the child.

I have to say, though, I find this "drain" talk to be straight ******* nonsense. It's not like they're going to graduate high school and take their diploma back to their parents' country of origin.