• Quick note - the problem with Youtube videos not embedding on the forum appears to have been fixed, thanks to ZiprHead. If you do still see problems let me know.

The Theory of Relativity will begin to fall apart in 2016/2017

Status
Not open for further replies.
halleyscomet said:
You'd think he'd be excited about a ready data repository that he could use to support, possibly prove, the hypothesis he's been promoting for close to a decade.

Maybe he's not responding because he's busy getting the raw data. Maybe.
Click to expand...

When you are looking for a Moby Dick, you pay no attention to real whales!!!!!
 
MRC_Hans said:
GPS is not a commercial system, it is a military system. It is also the worldwide navigation system of choice. It is a multi-billion dollar enterprise, and is expected to hold the lead in decades to come.

Of course they are monitoring anomalies. The aerospace business is more focused on documentation than even the medical industry (and that says a LOT, I can tell you from personal experience.). And of course they make all relevant analysis of that data. After all, it's just a question of feeding the data you already collected into a computer program.

Your idea, Bjarne, would cause systematic pertuberations, which are very easy to detect using statistical analysis.

Face it, man: They are NOT there.

Hans
Click to expand...

1.
Monday Morning red Ivan and Sergey, will launch a new polar satellite into the GPS system

2.
Wednesday Morning red Ivan and Sergey are done.
Now John receive the on board satellite time dilation data, - also by satellite perigee and apogee etc..
On every path of the orbit John now know excactly how much the clock on board deviate from Earth based atomic clocks

3.
Thursday morning John is handling over his time dilation measurements deviation to Yuky and Vera.
They will now write software especially designed to that particle new satellite.

4.
Friday Morning the software is ready, and Hubert is updated the software on the Satellite. 17 minutes after the upload started the satellite clock software is synchronized and appears to tick exactly like a clock on earth.
The GPS work perfect, and everybody on planet earth is happy and proud.
Also NASA red Ivan, and all the others

5.
Friday Albert visit the navigation center he want to calculate whether the time dilation measurement John did fits with the text book, - BUT everybody now ask WHY it’s (GPS and the new satellites) all working perfect, why calculate anything ?

Ahhh Albert say, - well it is maybe also better to use our time on figure out why the theory of relativity in inconstant with quantum physic, the problems with black holes etc. etc.. etc.. So sorry have a nice day..

Even though if Albert was calculating the orbit according to the text book, he would only find, that the orbit had a relative large elliptic eccentricity, but well he would think I works so that may be OK. Why use more fuel on that...

So soon Albert is comparing measured orbit data with calculated data he would find that measured data shows smaller elliptic eccentricity compared to the calculated data, first now he would be suspicious that something is wrong with that single satellite..

But even Albert know that calculated data shows that the orbit have a relative large elliptical eccentricity, IT DOES NOT EFFECT THE SATELLITE, - because ONLY measured data was used to synchronize the clocks is crucial, - the calculated data is not a problem for GPS, - but only for the theory of relativity.

Hmm Albert would think, we never saw such large anomaly before, it must be something on board that have a error. - So we forget it, it works well so that is the main thing.
 
Last edited:
Bjarne, no matter how many times you repeat your lie that GPS clocks are continuously re-synchronized from earth, that does not make it true.
 
Lukraak_Sisser said:
Bjarne, no matter how many times you repeat your lie that GPS clocks are continuously re-synchronized from earth, that does not make it true.
Click to expand...

Off course GPS clocks are continuously re-synchronized from earth, - and also even brought back from perturbation influence etc.
So what ?

John, Vera, Yuky and the rest of the staff will just repeat their work again and again.

Albert is still busy to figure out what went wrong with the inconsistency between relativity and quantum physic and other gigantic problems there are with that theory
 
Last edited:
Bjarne said:
1.
Monday Morning red Ivan and Sergey, will launch a new polar satellite into the GPS system

2.
Wednesday Morning red Ivan and Sergey are done.
Now John receive the on board satellite time dilation data, - also by satellite perigee and apogee etc..
On every path of the orbit John now know excactly how much the clock on board deviate from Earth based atomic clocks

3.
Thursday morning John is handling over his time dilation measurements deviation to Yuky and Vera.
They will now write software especially designed to that particle new satellite.

4.
Friday Morning the software is ready, and Hubert is updated the software on the Satellite. 17 minutes after the upload started the satellite clock software is synchronized and appears to tick exactly like a clock on earth.
The GPS work perfect, and everybody on planet earth is happy and proud.
Also NASA red Ivan, and all the others

5.
Friday Albert visit the navigation center he want to calculate whether the time dilation measurement John did fits with the text book, - BUT everybody now ask WHY it’s (GPS and the new satellites) all working perfect, why calculate anything ?

Ahhh Albert say, - well it is maybe also better to use our time on figure out why the theory of relativity in inconstant with quantum physic, the problems with black holes etc. etc.. etc.. So sorry have a nice day..

Even though if Albert was calculating the orbit according to the text book, he would only find, that the orbit had a relative large elliptic eccentricity, but well he would think I works so that may be OK. Why use more fuel on that...

So soon Albert is comparing measured orbit data with calculated data he would find that measured data shows smaller elliptic eccentricity compared to the calculated data, first now he would be suspicious that something is wrong with that single satellite..

But even Albert know that calculated data shows that the orbit have a relative large elliptical eccentricity, IT DOES NOT EFFECT THE SATELLITE, - because ONLY measured data was used to synchronize the clocks is crucial, - the calculated data is not a problem for GPS, - but only for the theory of relativity.

Hmm Albert would think, we never saw such large anomaly before, it must be something on board that have a error. - So we forget it, it works well so that is the main thing.
Click to expand...

Ah, Bjarne, there is the thing for you! Fiction writing. You seem to have some talent there. All you need now is a plausible plot.

Hans
 
You definitely should try do something with that. Unfortunately, Albert seems to have given up, but now I want to know what happened next. You could carry on with the tale, perhaps go like:


As it turned out, John is a astrophysicist and a rocket scientist and he isn't happy at all with Albert giving up. Now, it turns out that Albert is not entirely to blame, with a deadly disease wreaking havoc in his body.
John knows this, so he takes it upon himself to work through all the calculations. And what John discovers then .....


Work on something plausible
 
issp.jpg


If we assume the ISS would follow an orbit aligned to the ecliptic south / north (dark flow) axis, deviation from the time dilation predicted by special relativity (during one ISS orbit) can be calculated as follows;

Time dilation does not only happen on a vertical straight south / south axis, but also when moving in any horizontal direction.
This mean when the ISS is moving from ‘X’ to ‘E’, (see fig11) the expected time dilation due to SR influence will total only be 50% of the expected amount.
At ‘E’ time gain and loss of time will equalize.
When moving from ‘E’ and to ‘Z’ the clock on board ISS will gradually begin to thick faster, starting right after leaving ‘E’ and culminating at ‘Z’.
At ‘Z’ the SR-time-dilation “anomaly” will reach the culmination points that demonstrate the biggest discrepancy between expected time dilation according to the prevailing and modified theory of relativity.

At 'Z' the dark flow speed is reduced by 7660 m/s
1/sqrt(1-7660^2/299792458^2)- 1, = time will tick 3.26e-10s. faster according to modified theory of relativity, and not 3.26e-10 slower according to the prevailing theory.

The ISS orbital period = 5561 seconds. A quarter of that period (1390 seconds) .
During that period the effective average speed opposite dark flow is about 3830ms-1 /2 = 1900 ms-1
The average time dilation factor is therefore, - 1/sqrt(1-3830^2/299792458^2)- 1 = 8.16e-11
The total loss of time per orbit relative to a clock on Earth, - 1390s * 8.16e-11= 1.13e-7s.
The gain of time for the other quarter of the orbit relative to a clock on Earth, - 1390s * 8.16e-11= 1.13e-7s.

Which mean half of such orbit will have no SR time dilation effect.

But the inclination of the ISS is not aligned with the dark flow axis; it is however inclined relative to that axis somewhere between 20° to 25°, therefore we shall only expect an approximately time loss about 3.0e-8s

Off course the same principle applies for all kinds of orbits, and also the Galileo 5 & 6 satellites now dedicated for scientific tests.

Galileo 5 & 6 Kinematic Time Dilation (orbits aligned with the dark flow inclination)
If we assume that the Galileo 5 & 6 satellites will follow orbits aligned to the ecliptic south / north (dark flow) axis; - then the deviation from the time dilation during one Galileo (5 & 6) satellite orbit can be calculated as follows:

The orbital period = 46800 seconds.
A quarter of that period (11700 seconds) is where the Galileo will gain time due to gradually slower absolute dark flow speed. Speed is 3800 ms-1 .

The effective average speed is half of the orbit speed, - 3800 m/s /2 = 1900 ms-1
The average time dilation factor is therefor, - 1/sqrt(1-1900^2/299792458^2)- 1 = 2.0e-11
The total unexpected loss of time per orbit relative to a clock on Earth 11700 * 2.0e-11= 2.34e-7s
The gained time for the other quarter of the orbit relative to a clock on Earth, - 11700 * 2.0e-11= 2.34e-7s.
Which mean half of such orbit will see no SR time dilation effect.

Galileo 5 & 6 Kinematic Time Dilation (orbit 45° inclination relative to the dark flow axis)
If we assume that the Galileo 5 & 6 satellites will follow the orbits of 45° inclined relative to the ecliptic south / north axis, (relative to the dark flow axis) the time dilation during one Galileo 5 & 6 satellite orbit can be calculated as follows:

LOSS OF TIME (MODIFIED THEORY OF RELATIVITY)
Half of the satellite orbit, - the speed opposite Dark flow, = 33,3% of the orbit speed. 3800 ms-1 /3 = 267 m/s
The time dilation factor = 1/sqrt(1-1267^2/299792458^2) - 1 = 8.9e-12
The total unexpected loss of time per orbit relative to a clock on Earth = 23400s. * 8.9e-12 = 2.08e-7s

GAINED TIME (MODIFIED THEORY OF RELATIVITY)
Half of the satellite orbit, - absolute motion speed , = (66,6% of the orbit speed) 3800 ms-1 /3*2 = 2534 m/s
The time dilation factor = 1/sqrt(1-2534^2/299792458^2)- 1 = 3.57e-11
The total gain of time per orbit relative to a clock on Earth = 23400s. * 3.57e-11 = 8.35e-7s

GAINED TIME (ACCORDING TO PREVAILING THEORY OG RELATIVITY)
Half of the satellite orbit, - absolute motion speed , = (100% of the orbit speed) 3800 ms-1 = 3800 m/s
The time dilation factor = 1/sqrt(1-3800^2/299792458^2)- 1 = 8.03e-11
The total gain of time per orbit relative to a clock on Earth = 23400s. * 8.03e-11= 1,87e-6s
 
And why do your calculations not correct for the fact that both the earth and the sun change position relative to your 'dark flow' constantly?

Or do you assume geocentrism?
 
Bjarne said:
Off course GPS clocks are continuously re-synchronized from earth, - and also even brought back from perturbation influence etc.
So what ?

John, Vera, Yuky and the rest of the staff will just repeat their work again and again.

Albert is still busy to figure out what went wrong with the inconsistency between relativity and quantum physic and other gigantic problems there are with that theory
Click to expand...



Fascinating. You've been given access to the data to prove your hypothesis, and instead of crunching the data and finding the proof, you choose instead to write fan-fiction to create a straw man you can argue against instead.

What stories will you write to justify yourself when the ISS doesn't prove your hypothesis?

Will you make up another idiotic story about someone not having the time to do their job?

Have you considered writing Einstein RPF (Real Person Fiction) on https://archiveofourown.org/ instead of arguing impotency against better educated and better informed minds here? At least on the fan-fiction site your fiction would be evaluated by some upon its merits as a story instead of upon it being scientifically illiterate.
 
Bjarne said:
I just have to wait for the ISS and Galileo 5 & 6 test i finish, its much easier
Click to expand...



It's not a matter of it being simpler. It's a matter of drawing out your act. You're predicting a time dilation difference several times that needed to render the effected GPS satellites unfit for accurate navigation. Instead of using the GPS data to make predictions about what the ISS and Galileo test results should be, you write fan-fiction explaining why this discovery, which, if true, would make the career of anyone who published a paper on it, is being ignored by the scientists and engineers who need to work with it daily.

I'm going to make a prediction. A few years from now, when you've run out of "they're still crunching the numbers" excuses, you're going to write another hypothetical short story about how the ISS and Galileo 5 & 6 teams somehow managed to miss this massive, world altering discrepancy because they were busy with mundane tasks or tangential analysis. You will ONLY do this after several posts calling out the absurdity of the claim you'll be making that they're deliberately hiding the "truth" to protect Einstein's theories. You'll never request the raw data yourself. Even if someone gives you a link to the raw data so you can download it, you'll never do your own analysis. You'll just latch onto another scheduled test as the one that will "finally" vindicate you.
 
Bjarne said:
1.
Monday Morning red Ivan and Sergey, will launch a new polar satellite into the GPS system

2.
Wednesday Morning red Ivan and Sergey are done.
Now John receive the on board satellite time dilation data, - also by satellite perigee and apogee etc..
On every path of the orbit John now know excactly how much the clock on board deviate from Earth based atomic clocks

3.
Thursday morning John is handling over his time dilation measurements deviation to Yuky and Vera.
They will now write software especially designed to that particle new satellite.

4.
Friday Morning the software is ready, and Hubert is updated the software on the Satellite. 17 minutes after the upload started the satellite clock software is synchronized and appears to tick exactly like a clock on earth.
The GPS work perfect, and everybody on planet earth is happy and proud.
Also NASA red Ivan, and all the others

5.
Friday Albert visit the navigation center he want to calculate whether the time dilation measurement John did fits with the text book, - BUT everybody now ask WHY it’s (GPS and the new satellites) all working perfect, why calculate anything ?

Ahhh Albert say, - well it is maybe also better to use our time on figure out why the theory of relativity in inconstant with quantum physic, the problems with black holes etc. etc.. etc.. So sorry have a nice day..

Even though if Albert was calculating the orbit according to the text book, he would only find, that the orbit had a relative large elliptic eccentricity, but well he would think I works so that may be OK. Why use more fuel on that...

So soon Albert is comparing measured orbit data with calculated data he would find that measured data shows smaller elliptic eccentricity compared to the calculated data, first now he would be suspicious that something is wrong with that single satellite..

But even Albert know that calculated data shows that the orbit have a relative large elliptical eccentricity, IT DOES NOT EFFECT THE SATELLITE, - because ONLY measured data was used to synchronize the clocks is crucial, - the calculated data is not a problem for GPS, - but only for the theory of relativity.

Hmm Albert would think, we never saw such large anomaly before, it must be something on board that have a error. - So we forget it, it works well so that is the main thing.
Click to expand...

Again, this is fractally wrong.

First, an ad-hoc correction couldn't work the way you've described because a GPS orbit precesses, so its angle from the ecliptic (and thus dark-flow impact) is slowly but constantly changing.

Second, even if your ad-hoc correction would work, that's not how such things are done. No low-level software engineer is given some anomalous data and told to make it all work out. Instead, if there were such an issue, there would be papers written, various corrections and explanations would be proposed, there would be trade studies, involvement of the various user groups to understand how they'd be impacted, eventually a chosen approach with allocated budget & schedule, then implementation, testing, and finally (finally!) a roll-out of the updated algorithm. It would take years, hundreds of people would be directly involved, thousands would be tangentially involved, and there'd be a huge paper & internet trail.

Third, it wouldn't be easy to do that sort of ad-hoc correction. The data from the GPS monitor stations is fed into a Kalman filter that looks for a best fit to a particular orbit model (basically a Keplerian with a few extra terms) so to do the ad-hoc correction, our software engineer would have to invent a new orbit model and hook it into the Kalman filter.

Fourth - and if you consider none of the other reasons, consider this - The ephemeris data that each GPS spacecraft sends has a very compact, specific structure* based on a traditional orbit model. Even if our hapless software engineer found a quick hack to estimate a more accurate orbit, there's no way to get that data to the users. They're stuck with the historical orbit description, and there's no way to send them an ad-hoc correction term.

*The ephemeris terms are detailed on pages 26 and 27 of that document
 
dasmiller said:
Again, you're conflating spacecraft equipment failures with an ongoing orbit deviations.
Click to expand...

The point is

1.
So soon an anomaly is discovered the cause of it can also be equipment failures.

2.
The is problematic because as i read it, staff is not allowed to speak completely open about it.

3.
I cannot find anything thing that say that a GPS staff not is included that kind of politic.
 
dasmiller said:
Again, this is fractally wrong.

First, an ad-hoc correction couldn't work the way you've described because a GPS orbit precesses, so its angle from the ecliptic (and thus dark-flow impact) is slowly but constantly changing.

Second, even if your ad-hoc correction would work, that's not how such things are done. No low-level software engineer is given some anomalous data and told to make it all work out. Instead, if there were such an issue, there would be papers written, various corrections and explanations would be proposed, there would be trade studies, involvement of the various user groups to understand how they'd be impacted, eventually a chosen approach with allocated budget & schedule, then implementation, testing, and finally (finally!) a roll-out of the updated algorithm. It would take years, hundreds of people would be directly involved, thousands would be tangentially involved, and there'd be a huge paper & internet trail.

Third, it wouldn't be easy to do that sort of ad-hoc correction. The data from the GPS monitor stations is fed into a Kalman filter that looks for a best fit to a particular orbit model (basically a Keplerian with a few extra terms) so to do the ad-hoc correction, our software engineer would have to invent a new orbit model and hook it into the Kalman filter.

Fourth - and if you consider none of the other reasons, consider this - The ephemeris data that each GPS spacecraft sends has a very compact, specific structure* based on a traditional orbit model. Even if our hapless software engineer found a quick hack to estimate a more accurate orbit, there's no way to get that data to the users. They're stuck with the historical orbit description, and there's no way to send them an ad-hoc correction term.

*The ephemeris terms are detailed on pages 26 and 27 of that document
Click to expand...

One the one hand there are as you wrote several reason to believe that a serious anomaly should not be possible to hide.

On the other hand there is also reason to believe that a dilation anomaly is possible.........

1.
Read my post above.

2.
The main task of the GPS staff is to keep the system working, - not primary to speculate what the cause of different kind of anomalies really is.

3.
So the main task is to keep clocks synchronized..

4.
There are many significant influences on satellites, here is a article I read today
NASA space junk experts have refined the forecast for the anticipated death plunge of a giant satellite, with the U.S. space agency now predicting the 6 1/2-ton climate probe will plummet to Earth around Sept. 23, a day earlier than previously reported.
"Re-entry is expected Sept. 23, plus or minus a day. The re-entry of UARS is advancing because of a sharp increase in solar activity since the beginning of this week," NASA officials wrote in a status update today (Sept. 16). The projection is a day earlier than a previous forecast released by NASA yesterday.
Notice plus minus one day, - just because of solar storm.
The anomaly I speak about compared to that +/- one day, - is peanuts.
Source ... http://www.space.com/12982-dead-nasa-satellite-falling-earth-sept-24.html

5.
I think I have a better world view to offer, - several huge mysteries are easy solved in the new paradigm, there are only one single hard nut left, - there must be a time dilation anomalies out there, - known, “secret” or what so ever doesn’t matter, - It’s there, - scientific ISS test will reveal it's there.
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.

Back
Top Bottom