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On What Basis Does "Skeptics" Appear in the Forum Name?

tuco said:
As for Mr Randi legacy. I know so little I should probably stfu, however, makes me wonder how much time and energy would Mr Randi devote to 'nonsenses' like Bigfoot, 9/11 or shroud.
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I think strictly speaking the Shroud or even Big Foot is more in line with what Randi is all about rather than 9/11 which was, like it or not, essentially a political act. One that involved terrorism to be sure, but essentially political. Randi is not a politician. This is how he's described on Randi.org:
James Randi has an international reputation as a magician and escape artist, but today he is best known as the world’s most tireless investigator and demystifier of paranormal and pseudoscientific claims. Randi has pursued “psychic” spoonbenders, exposed the dirty tricks of faith healers, investigated homeopathic water “with a memory,” and generally been a thorn in the sides of those who try to pull the wool over the public’s eyes in the name of the supernatural. Link
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Where it's gotten skewed here is, people arguing a political viewpoint sometimes, usually it seems after they've run out of arguments, claim that anyone that doesn't agree with them is not "a skeptic." In fact there are a small group of people here who routinely do that and regular users know who they are. (I always imagine them saying this to someone in front of James Randi and Randi giving them a blank look.)

Again, I think the word 'Skeptic' in the title is really a holdover from the forum's earliest days. It's become kind of a trademark. One that has pretty much lost its relevance to today's message board but still honors the board's roots. Thus my answer to the question, "On What Basis Does "Skeptics" Appear in the Forum Name?" would be:

An historic basis.
 
newyorkguy said:
...... Thus my answer to the question, "On What Basis Does "Skeptics" Appear in the Forum Name?" would be:

An historic basis.
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By the very same illogic monotheists ought to be justified to have the word "skeptic" inserted somewhere in the names of their religions... perhaps Catholic Skeptics United Church or Universal Skeptics Presbyterian Synagogue... after all they were historically skeptical of Baal and Zeus and Thor... no?

Numerous theists were historically and are still presently skeptical of science and evolution and rational reality... maybe they also can be justified to call themselves skeptics too.

Wouldn't that be a very ironic skeptics' fallacy!!!
 
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newyorkguy said:
Thus my answer to the question, "On What Basis Does "Skeptics" Appear in the Forum Name?" would be:

An historic basis.
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Every now and then a noob will get something like the following in response to a post they made:

"This is a skeptics forum. We expect you to be able to back up what you say and not just expect us to take your word for it."

Regardless of what JR might have originally intended, this is the basis for which "skeptic" appears in the forum name. There is an expectation that any POV will be backed up with sound non-fallacious arguments and evidence where it exists. Anybody who does not meet this standard can expect their arguments to be torn to shreds.
 
Leumas said:
By the very same illogic monotheists ought to be justified to have the word "skeptic" inserted somewhere in the names of their religions... perhaps Catholic Skeptics United Church or Universal Skeptics Presbyterian Synagogue... after all they were historically skeptical of Baal and Zeus and Thor... no?

Numerous theists were historically and are still presently skeptical of science and evolution and rational reality... maybe they also can be justified to call themselves skeptics too.

Wouldn't that be a very ironic skeptics' fallacy!!!
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But surely that's a "lay" definition of the word "sceptic" (allow me the UK spelling :D), as a synonym for "one who has doubts about a certain belief". By that definition, it would certainly be correct to posit that, for example, 9/11 Truthers were "sceptics", in that they were "sceptical" that the Government's official version of events was anywhere near the truth.....

But aren't we talking here about a more fundamental modern* definition of "sceptic": a person who only reaches conclusions after a rational, reasonable, logical and disinterested examination of all the available evidence, and who remains open to modifying or even abandoning a conclusion if new evidence materialises?

By that definition, it's easy to conclude that such groups as (say) 9/11 Truthers, Bigfoot believers, believers in the pharmacological efficacy of homeopathy, and indeed dedicated followers of pretty much every religion in the World, are NOT sceptics.


* "Modern", since the original Sceptics of Ancient Greece took a metaphysical position that it is impossible to have real (let alone absolute) knowledge of anything.......
 
psionl0 said:
Every now and then a noob will get something like the following in response to a post they made:

"This is a skeptics forum. We expect you to be able to back up what you say and not just expect us to take your word for it."

Regardless of what JR might have originally intended, this is the basis for which "skeptic" appears in the forum name. There is an expectation that any POV will be backed up with sound non-fallacious arguments and evidence where it exists. Anybody who does not meet this standard can expect their arguments to be torn to shreds.
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If I got that response, I'd reply with something like: "you missed an apostrophe after the final "s" in "skeptics"" :D

And then I'd be torn to shreds :p
 
arthwollipot said:
"Not a true skeptic" is the most pathetic way to exclude someone from your community imaginable. It's also a paraphrase of a common logical fallacy.
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Yes and no.

Imagine if someone posted something on this forum along the following lines: "I believe Uri Geller used nothing but the power of his mind to bend cutlery and move objects. And yes, I consider myself to be a sceptic". I think the "no true sceptic" form of response (with a fuller explanation of why) would be both appropriate and true in that instance.

But yes, it appears far from uncommon for people on this forum and elsewhere to throw around the "no true sceptic" weapon against their debating opponents when it's neither appropriate nor accurate.
 
What is ironic is that on a forum purportedly for skeptics debating the justification for claiming that the forum is for skeptics, not a single so called skeptic so far has bothered to actually hazard a definition for the term that can be agreed upon by the supposed skeptics before they can start even justifying its usage.

Can someone who claims to be an atheist but yet claims that Jesus saves souls be called a skeptic?

Can someone be called a skeptic who thinks that the onus of proof is on the person who rejects Jesus' resurrection claims?

Can someone still be called a skeptic while believing that Newton's laws are only useful for making horse shoes and are different on the moon?

Can someone who believes that lies are not lies unless someone believes them be called a skeptic?

Can one be called a skeptic who asserts that fabricated lies and myths are evidence for the claimed lies?

Can someone be called a skeptic who claims that considering psychics and astrologers to be hoaxers is a matter of faith?

Can one be called a skeptic who believes that maybe one day supernatural claims will be proven to have been right all along and people who reject the supernatural are just as fundamentalist in their faith as fundamentalist theists?

Can one be called a skeptic while maintaining that not believing in sky daddies is as much a matter of faith as it is to believe in them?

Can someone be called a skeptic who labels people as demented abused as children frothing at the mouth fundamentalist anti-theists because they use the Buybull as evidence against itself and the religions it espouses?

Can one be called a skeptic while claiming that someone who quotes the Buybull to show its fallacies and falsities is a fundamentalist fanatic?

Can someone who historically used to be a skeptic but now believes Jesus is his god be called a skeptic?

Can someone legitimately claim to be a skeptic because he just can do so?

Is one a skeptic who believes that rocks and trees are atheists and thus atheism is a mindless gut feeling just as much a matter of faith as being a theist?

Can someone who derides people for not conforming to his tribe's standards be called a skeptic?

Can someone who lies and makes false claims to further an agenda be called a skeptic?

Can one be called a skeptic who punishes someone for exposing the lies and false claims?

Can one be called a skeptic who abuses and bullies someone who points out the fallacies and false claims and assertions?

Can one be a skeptic while refusing to read books that disprove his held opinions and only reads books in support of his opinions?

Can someone be called a skeptic who when people oppose his opinions he claims that they are doing so because when they were children they were abused by people with that opinion?

Can someone be called a skeptic if he strives by any means in his power to silence any opposition to his opinions?

Can someone be called a skeptic when he applies subjectively and arbitrarily different and contradictory standards of judgement to the exact same words used in exactly the same situation with the only difference being the person who made the words?

Can someone be called a skeptic if he thinks he can read minds and accordingly decide what one really meant to say and then insist upon it as the truth despite the fact that the person whose mind was purportedly divined rejecting the mind reading claims?

Can one be a skeptic who claims to be an atheist but yet believes that Jesus' prophecies are all slowly coming to fruition?

Can someone be a skeptic while deriding someone for pointing out that the above persons are not really atheists?

Can one be a skeptic who claims to be an atheist but yet believes that the Buybull's "scientific facts" are being discovered and confirmed by science on a regular bases?

Can someone be a skeptic while bullying people who point out that the above persons are not really atheists?

Can one be called a skeptic who claims that it is an insanity to debates against theists on an internet forum and that doing so only goes to prove a mental disorder and religious fundamentalism?

Is it skepticism to malign and abhor someone who points out that the claims of the above persons are not in accordance with skepticism?

Is someone a skeptic who maligns and bullies and abuses people who say truths in a way that shocks and prefer that these people be silent than say the truths in a shocking manner?

Is one a skeptic who thinks people who state facts in a unique and novel way are mentally damaged who need a lobotomy?

Is one a skeptic who hates the person who tells the truth and uses all means in his power to extricate them out of his tribal club?
 
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So what? Who cares? What does it matter? Why should I bother with it?

OP asked several questions:

In what way does ISF aid or support skepticism, or even act skeptically?
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Given that this is named International Skeptics Forum, is there a responsibility that the forum is seen to act skeptically itself?
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Is it harming or aiding skepticism in the process by not being visibly skeptical in style?
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and this is one of responses:

What is ironic is that on a forum purportedly for skeptics debating the justification for claiming that the forum is for skeptics, not a single so called skeptic so far has bothered to actually hazard a definition for the term that can be agreed upon by the supposed skeptics before they can start even justifying its usage.
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Now what? I've learned what Leumas finds ironic. That is nice.

I tell you what would happen, I am psychic like that, if what Lemuas found ironic would happen. If anyone would attempt to define "skepticism" there would me endless debate as what it means to everyone. From here I can safely skip the rest. Time and energy is limited.
 
Is one a skeptic who calls 840 words a "wall of text"?

Is one a skeptic who thinks that 840 words, which he refuses to read, are not an argument?

Is one a skeptic who thinks that an argument is only an argument if it can be written down in a few words?
 
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Is one a skeptic who thinks that it is wrong to require one to understand the meaning of the words one applies as a label to oneself?

Is one a skeptic who is not even interested to know what exactly the term means and just accepts that anyone ought to be able to call himself one just because he joined a club with the word as part of the name?

Is one a skeptic who ridicules people for even questioning what the term means?
 
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I am not saying those are not good questions, I am asking how is it in my interest even reading them, let alone answering.

Ultimately the forum is what we make it to be whatever its called. I do not find it particular sceptical to debate definitions. There are tons of real world issues to investigate and be skeptical about. To each her own still, show me the importance of definition. Or rather not ;)
 
Leumas said:
Is one a skeptic who calls 840 words a "wall of text"?
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No.

One is just expecting a person to get to a point. Make the point. And make the point clearly.

I didn't have time to write a short letter, so I wrote a long one instead. - Mark Twain
 
Dr. Keith said:
No.

One is just expecting a person to get to a point. Make the point. And make the point clearly.

I didn't have time to write a short letter, so I wrote a long one instead. - Mark Twain
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One is also expected to read the point that is made not refuse to read it because it is a few words longer than he'd like and then call it not an argument and bare assert that the point was not made well without having actually read the point.

Is it skeptical to judge a text without having read it?

Is it skeptical to consider a few questions not a point well made without having actually read the questions?
 
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