Zero tolerance...dress code

[kittynh]

HA! It isn't Canada, it's the old the further North the better the schools system. I think Canadian systems are not any better than NH or Vermont or Minnesota. Certainly compatable with the same socio-economic group. My brother's kids go to school in Kanata, it's the same as here in NH. Well, a LOT more Asians (my nephew and neice are Asian, and raised with the Asian work ethic). They have a dress code called, "Asians don't wear belly shirts or get tattos in middle school or mom will kill you." Plus, Canada takes Asians with better bank accounts and education levels (the exodus from Hong Kong) than the US does. Hey, they took my relatives in! And they are smart and good looking if I do say so myself!

 

[Mendor]

I cannot imagine a school with a dress code such as the ones mentioned.

How about a uniform? With a tie? A white, proper, button-up shirt? Black trousers? Sweatshirt with school crest on it? (which admittedly not many folk wear - well, specifically, I wear it, and some first years wear it)

Prefects wear blazers at my school. This is one of the reasons I elected not to try for prefectship.

Roll on university.

 

[Eos of the Eons]

There are very few Asians where I live. I wish there were more because I feel normal sized around them instead of like a dwarf!

Rich Asians? We have Asian gangs in places like Edmonton and Calgary, just like there are other gangs.

I think we're pulling out too many stereotypes here

 

[Zep]

The problem of fashion does not go away once uniforms are introduced. One kid will find a way of wearing part of the uniform in a unique way and that will become cool or they will concentrate entirely on having the cool shoes or the cool hair style. Earrings become extremely important at uniform schools. Worse, they will pick on the kid who does something slightly nonconformist. You cannot get kids to disregard fashion. They are hard wired for it. Think about all the different trends they start which have nothing to do with clothes. There are cool foods, cool drinks, cool bags, cool cars, cool book covers, cool locker accessories, cool toys, even cool ways of carrying books to class. Uniforms may serve a purpose but they do not do away with the fashion diversion.

Quite true, and I did point out above that kids WILL find ways to flout "the uniform rules" - it's they way they are at that age. And, to a certain extent, it IS tolerated - even the Zeplette, who goes to a private school with strong uniform rules, has ways and means of imposing her individuality within the guidelines.

I actually believe that the school uniform simply teaches them to conform. School uniforms prepare kids at an early age to judge people by their clothes. The message is, "proper people wear what they are expected to wear and those who refuse to conform are not to be trusted." Thus, they can easily transition to their adult uniform which is determined by their jobs. There are uniforms for most jobs including those that appear not to have one. Lawyers and bankers certainly wear one. I am troubled by the notion that clothing is more important than the indvidual inside it. I think that uniforms reenforce that notion though that is the opposite of their stated purpose.

That's a more draconian point of view, really. Unfortunately, it IS true - there IS an expected degree of dress conformity required by certain business sectors that cannot be ignored. You simply cannot rock into a merchant bank looking like Eminem or P. Diddy - your job would be on (or, indeed, off) the line. This is one extreme, of course. But kids do need to learn earlier rather than later that their personal choices may, sometimes, not be allowed or be suitable or be in their best interests.

However you can just as easily say that a school uniform gives kids a sense of "team" rather than forcing conformity. Take a look at your standard teenager - the fashion imperative is often that they all try to FIT INTO a group, to look similar. And I doubt that the school football/baseball/cheerleader team wants to use "whatever took my fancy this morning" as their standard dress.

It also (and here's a possible social difference emerging) "levels the playing field", to provide equal opportunity for learning. Rich kid, poor kid, all at least would find it harder to put down the other, to find differences that lead possibly to hatred and resent.

Adults judge kids by their clothes. What is the message recieved from an Eton jacket or a Harvard tie? The original purpose of school uniforms was, in part at least, to let everyone who saw your kid know that he was one of the elite. That he was better than other kids.

Indeed so, and no place is immune from that. However, KIDS also judge each other by their clothes, so it becomes harder to dis someone who looks like you, basically!

I agree that uniforms have some advantages such as evening things out for poorer students and yet, as I pointed out, kids find other details on which to concentrate.

"Isn't it bad enough we try to make these kids all think alike? Now we gotta make 'em all look alike too?"
-George Carlin

Glory

That's a strawman argument. Great individuality originates from many sources, and a uniform is no restriction to that. What a pity it would be, though, that a great mind might be looked over and disregarded simply because its owner wears possibly unfashionable camo pants, hoodie jackets, Oakleys and giant unlaced shoes??

 

[Brown]

Another dress code issue has come up. Here is a report from CNN:

An 11-year-old Oklahoma girl has been suspended from a public school because officials said her Muslim head scarf violates dress code policies.

I found it ironic that those challenging the dress code assert the issue as one of "religious freedom." How perverse, I thought, to refer to an outdated sexist religious requirement as a matter of "religious freedom."

 

[Brown]

"Isn't it bad enough we try to make these kids all think alike? Now we gotta make 'em all look alike too?"
-George Carlin

Last night, HBO reran the special in which George Carlin uttered these sentiments. Although I have great respect for George, I thought he was off base, for a couple of reasons.

First, earlier on in the same special, George ranted against children being overprotected and worshipped by their parents. Kids were being given too much latitude, he argued. But later on, he opposed school uniforms as being too restrictive. Hey, George, as far as restrictions go, uniforms are really at the non-restrictive end of the spectrum. Would you rather that Mommy and Daddy go out an buy junior the expensive shirt and the designer pants and the $250 shoes with some athlete's logo on them, because that's what junior WANTS to wear to school?

Second, dressing alike and thinking alike don't go hand in hand. I used to work with junior high school kids who all wore uniforms. These kids had some pretty good teachers. The kids didn't talk alike, they didn't behave alike, and they sure as hell didn't think alike.

 

[Kilted_Canuck]

Ummm, not really kitty. I hesitate to give a number, but I personally know three asians that go to my school (about 600 total students). There are many more First Nations teens, which happen to have one of the worst stereotypes here. Most of the people that go to my school are lazy white teens from mixed social classes, ranging from mid-lower class to upper-middle class. These people from entierly different backgrounds seem to not have many fights, disputes or arguements. Yeah, there are jerks and idiots here, but fights are extremely rare.

 

[Mendor]

The plot - well, a plot - thickens:

Uniforms 'raise school standards' (BBC)

School uniforms can help to improve pupils' behaviour, says Education Minister Ivan Lewis.

Among successful schools, a common characteristic was a "strong sense of ethos", said the minister.

 

[Glory]

Double post.

glory

 

[Glory]

Last night, HBO reran the special in which George Carlin uttered these sentiments. Although I have great respect for George, I thought he was off base, for a couple of reasons.

I thought he was making jokes.

First, earlier on in the same special, George ranted against children being overprotected and worshipped by their parents. Kids were being given too much latitude, he argued. But later on, he opposed school uniforms as being too restrictive. Hey, George, as far as restrictions go, uniforms are really at the non-restrictive end of the spectrum. Would you rather that Mommy and Daddy go out an buy junior the expensive shirt and the designer pants and the $250 shoes with some athlete's logo on them, because that's what junior WANTS to wear to school?

I included the Carlin quote simply for humour and emphasis.

He also gave parents who have bumper stickers on their cars touting their kids' accomplishments no end of grief. I think he is smart enough to realize that when your kid comes home with a sticker proclaiming you as the proud parent of an honour roll student, you better put that thing on your car. That those who do put the stickers on their cars are doing so to inspire their children rather than to brag about them. What he does illuminate throughout his act, although not in so many words, is that there are a bunch ididots out there who have come up with new and different ways to tell us we are all failing to do right by our kids. They use both negative and positive reenforcement to ensure that our kids are all exactly the same. Yes, some of them will be soccer players and some of them will be musicians but the goal is still to churn out over acheiving, self sastified, smug little sh!ts who will support the consumerism, greed, and war mongering that the US is famous for.

I know this may sound a little far to the left for most of you, but that is what I got out Carlin's act and I do agree with it to some extent. I think he goes a little far but that is his job as a humourist. He makes his point with exageration.

Second, dressing alike and thinking alike don't go hand in hand. I used to work with junior high school kids who all wore uniforms. These kids had some pretty good teachers. The kids didn't talk alike, they didn't behave alike, and they sure as hell didn't think alike.

Uniforms do not destroy individuality all by them selves. They are simply a tool which can be used to that purpose amongst others. However, the quote does not imply that uniforms cause kids to think a like. It accuses society of trying to make the kids all think alike as well as making them dress alike.

Glory

 

[Brown]

I thought he was making jokes.

Yes, of course. George's humor, unlike that of many other comics, usually makes a point. George occasionally makes jokes for the sake of making jokes, but one thing that sets him apart is that much of his comedy has a discernable theme.

I suspect that George's real target is not so much uniforms as it is uniformity in all respects, especially uniformity in thought. George was very lucky in that he attended a Catholic school that allowed him a good deal of freedom. Although there was some imposition of religious uniformity, it wasn't taken to an extreme. George had some good teachers, too, and the cover for "Class Clown" offered them thanks. Good teachers make all the difference.

By the way, I wonder how George would react to the uniformity imposed upon children in Japan? I expect he (like a lot of folks in the States) would be surprised, and perhaps appalled. Perhaps he sees the current push toward uniforms as a push toward the extreme uniformity practiced in Japan.

 

[Glory]

But kids do need to learn earlier rather than later that their personal choices may, sometimes, not be allowed or be suitable or be in their best interests.

Allowed by whom and for what reason? Suitable for what and who judges the suitability of the choice? People get really up in arms about what other people wear.

Okay, lets assume that kids need to learn to make appropriate clothing choices. How does making the decision for them help them do that?

Yes, their are reasons, some of them even good, for dressing a certain way for work. However, school is not work. School is the place where one is judged by their merits not their appearance. Ther is plenty of time to learn the value of conformity when one is trying to get a job. Until then I think there are more important things on which authorities can concentrate.

However you can just as easily say that a school uniform gives kids a sense of "team" rather than forcing conformity. Take a look at your standard teenager - the fashion imperative is often that they all try to FIT INTO a group, to look similar. And I doubt that the school football/baseball/cheerleader team wants to use "whatever took my fancy this morning" as their standard dress.

Kids form their own teams and devise their own uniforms. Their comaraderie stems from shared interests and simmilar attitudes rather than the coincidence of their landing in the same school. Dressing alike may give the illusion of comaraderie but that is the extent of it. Kids still form cliques and freeze others out. They still engage in all the behaviours that they do in their other schools. Remember Lord of the Flies. Uniform or not, the band still hangs together and hate the Jocks who hate the smart kids who hate the student union group etc...

It also (and here's a possible social difference emerging) "levels the playing field", to provide equal opportunity for learning. Rich kid, poor kid, all at least would find it harder to put down the other, to find differences that lead possibly to hatred and resent.

This may be to true to some extent.

Indeed so, and no place is immune from that. However, KIDS also judge each other by their clothes, so it becomes harder to dis someone who looks like you, basically!

Well, they manage. For instance, I know more than a few people who recall being teased for "trying to look like the cool/rich kids" "Look at so and so. She's wearing what we wear. She thinks she can be like us." Basically you get a rewording of, "you can take the boy out of the street but you can't take the street out of the boy."

That's a strawman argument. Great individuality originates from many sources, and a uniform is no restriction to that. What a pity it would be, though, that a great mind might be looked over and disregarded simply because its owner wears possibly unfashionable camo pants, hoodie jackets, Oakleys and giant unlaced shoes??

You also attribute an implication to the Carlin quote that isn't there. Carlin asserts that children are being forced to think alike as well as being made to dress alike. There is no implication that one causes the other.

Glory

 

[Glory]

Yes, of course. George's humor, unlike that of many other comics, usually makes a point. George occasionally makes jokes for the sake of making jokes, but one thing that sets him apart is that much of his comedy has a discernable theme.

I suspect that George's real target is not so much uniforms as it is uniformity in all respects, especially uniformity in thought. George was very lucky in that he attended a Catholic school that allowed him a good deal of freedom. Although there was some imposition of religious uniformity, it wasn't taken to an extreme. George had some good teachers, too, and the cover for "Class Clown" offered them thanks. Good teachers make all the difference.

By the way, I wonder how George would react to the uniformity imposed upon children in Japan? I expect he (like a lot of folks in the States) would be surprised, and perhaps appalled. Perhaps he sees the current push toward uniforms as a push toward the extreme uniformity practiced in Japan.

I know I am appalled by it. I Consider myself lucky to have grown up listening to George. He and several other people taught me the importance of resisting conformity, of questioning authority starting with questioning the method by which authority was attained and what the ultimate goal of the authoritarian is.

Glory

 

[Glory]

They don't go away, Glory, but I'm sure they diminish the intensity of this pressure. Because if you wear the uniform ONLY, you're not in the wrong, whereas a kid with a poor fashion taste can cause a disaster of big proportions if left to choose his outfit. A poor kid can "get away" with being poor if he's wearing a uniform.

The possibilities of picking on somebody because of their choice of clothes is immense. It is, in my opinion, another source of stress. It's when you're a troubled teen and you wake up already worrying what you should wear, because if you don't, they will pick on you. With a uniform, that issue is settled already.

I just don't think that uniforms are as good an answer to the problem as has been said. Kids at uniform schools still get picked on do they not?

Even if that's the case, I still think that the benefits outweigh the problems. There's never a 100% perfect solution anyway.

Maybe so, maybe so.

I HATED my uniform when I was a teen. But I also concede that, if not for that, my parents and other kid's would have had to spend MORE money on clothing. More visits to the mall, more incentive to consumerism. I don't think we need any more of that.

However, kids don't wear them all the time. They still need clothes for their lives outside of school and the pressure to have expensive clothes is still omnipresent. Parents have to buy the uniforms as well as the the other clothes.

Glory

 

[Whomp]

I think we've gotten a bit far afield.
Zep made the comment;

What a pity it would be, though, that a great mind might be looked over and disregarded simply because its owner wears possibly unfashionable camo pants, hoodie jackets, Oakleys and giant unlaced shoes??

I can't imagine a teacher overlooking a child's mind because of fashion. Or was he talking about other students? Do children really go around looking for great minds?

Regardless of my views of "Uniforms, Yes or No", my main twitch comes in with the draconian "zero tolerance" enforcement of what seem to be relatively minor rules.

Zero tolerance on issues surrounding student safety ... ok.
Anything else is counter-productive.


Whomp!

 

[Glory]

Regardless of my views of "Uniforms, Yes or No", my main twitch comes in with the draconian "zero tolerance" enforcement of what seem to be relatively minor rules.

Zero tolerance on issues surrounding student safety ... ok.
Anything else is counter-productive.

I think zero tolerance is ridiculous under any circumstances including student safety issues. Life is full of variables and circumstances that can't be predicted. Zero tolerance policies makes it impossible to judge each situation individually. It is a recipe for injustice. It is also pure laziness disguised as an effort to be tough about discipline. It is the result of people saying, "we have to do something!", without giving any thought to the efficacy or negatiove consequences of their actions. We have already seen a kid get suspended for having a plastic knife in his lunch which his mother had included to enable him to slice up a peice of fruit. The school had a zero tolerance policy against students having weapons including knives. Relying on policies rather than common sense and judgement never works.



Glory

 

[Whomp]

Point!

 

[jimlintott]

A couple of points about school uniforms.

I am a single parent with two teenage children. I live on a tight budget. They attend school in regular everyday clothing. Uniforms would mean that I would have to purchase unique clothing with little to no use outside school. I would really be upset with having to bear this additional expense. School uniforms can mean extra stress to poorer families.

Here is a street smart tip. Do not allow your daughters to go out in public wearing school uniforms. There are a siginifacnt number of older males that find the school girl uniform to be extraordinarily erotic. These gilrs risk being harrassed, ogled and even being offered money to perform sexual acts. Of course some of this may happen anyway but the school uniform is particularly inviting.

I loathe the very idea of making everyone dress the same. I see it as an attack on personal liberty. Yes, many people wear uniforms for their profession but these are usually for identity or function. The suit and tie may be the uniform of many professions but we don't tell the bank manager what colour tie and socks to wear. He still has choice.

"You live in the freest country in the world now go get dressed the same as all the other children and go to school." School uniforms just seem unamerican.

Frankly, demanding conformity frightens me.

 

[arcticpenguin]

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=573&ncid=757&e=8&u=/nm/20031016/od_nm/smoking_dc

DOMONT, France (Reuters) - French high school students are up in arms over a drive by teachers to ban some of their most cherished items, ranging from cigarettes to G-strings.
...
"We're not allowed to smoke anywhere on the school grounds any more. They treat us like babies," said Melodie Gambero, a 17-year-old student in Domont, north of Paris, who went on strike with fellow students last week against the new rules.
...
The controversial smoking rules are being introduced in many schools as teachers are also trying to ban girls from showing off thongs and bellies above their low-cut trousers, provoking angry protests from fashion-conscious adolescents.

No G-strings in high school! This is a question of civil rights.

 

[Glory]

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=573&ncid=757&e=8&u=/nm/20031016/od_nm/smoking_dc


No G-strings in high school! This is a question of civil rights.

I don't like the idea of grown people thinking so much about young girls' underwear.

Glory