Zapata

[Viper Daimao]

The Chinese are not drilling off the coast of Cuba.

Kinda makes you wonder how much the rest of your supposed facts are also untrue and urban legends?

 

[SteveGrenard]

The Chinese are not drilling off the coast of Cuba.

Kinda makes you wonder how much the rest of your supposed facts are also untrue and urban legends?

You may be right and then again your sources may also be wrong. Short of giving a call to Raul to confirm, what you forgot to mention is that the reports of China being given Cuban drilling rights is that they came from the Republican side in an effort to make their case for off shore drilling and counter environmentalists and dems. I too saw all the pro/con reports and frankly don’t know what to believe but this 2006 piece quotes a number of parties. In 2006 the price of oil was not an issue...:

http://www.sptimes.com/2006/05/08/Worldandnation/Cuba_seeks_oil_near_K.shtml

(Map below from above URL)

And there’s this blog:

http://chasblogspot.blogspot.com/2008/06/mccain-offshore-drilling-china-and-cuba.html

My favorite is the environmentalists blaming Cheney for making a mistake and claiming
China is or is about to drill off-shore in Cuba.

In short, it depends on who you want to believe. But you’re right, compared to Cheney
little ole me has no idea who is lying and who isn’t, your snide remark and obvious omission that there is a propaganda war going on here notwithstanding. Bottom line my friend is that if the republicans get off shore drilling okayed in US coastal waters it would be a boon for George Herbert Walker Bush, yeah, that's right, the guy who is the President's father and a former President himself, now a sky diver. Viva Zapata! Zapata shall rise again. GWBush wants it. McCain wants it. Cheney wants it. Other members of the GOP want it. So if they fabricated or made up the story about China drilling off Cuba, it is another reason to doubt anything they say and not vote for McCain. I assume that's what you are driving at and if so I agree.

YouTube - Dick Cheney Lies to the World, Fox News Backs Him Up
Jun 13, 2008 ... Dick Cheney Lies to the World about China drilling for oil offshore of Cuba, Fox News Backs Him Up. Fox News yet again shows itself to be ...www.youtube.com/watch?v=GhnNih6EWoo

 

[SteveGrenard]

More evidence it is the GOP that started this. Thanks VIPER for giving us the opportunity to see what a bunch of liars and manipulators the GOP has turned into....

The far-right China-Cuba myth that just won’t die
Posted July 3rd, 2008 at 1:42 pm

About a month ago, as the debate over coastal drilling began in earnest, Dick Cheney pushed the rhetorical envelope a bit, telling the U.S. Chamber of Commerce that “oil is being drilled right now 60 miles off the coast of Florida. We’re not doing it. The Chinese are in cooperation with the Cuban government…. Even the communists have figured out that a good answer to high prices is more supply. Yet Congress has said … no to drilling off Florida.”

It’s been a common Republican talking point, but it’s patently false — the Chinese are not drilling off Cuba’s coasts. The day after Cheney made the bogus claim, the VP’s office acknowledged that he was mistaken.

And yet, for some reason, high-profile Republicans can’t stop repeating the claim that’s already been debunked. Maybe conservatives have decided that they can’t win a debate on energy policy on the merits, so lying to people about communists stealing our oil is the better strategy. Here’s failed presidential candidate Rudy Giuliani talking to CNN’s resident right-wing clown, Glenn Beck, last night:

http://www.thecarpetbaggerreport.com/archives/16084.html

Ray St. Louis column: A lie -- Chinese will be drilling off Florida coast

It all started with conservative commentator George Will’s pronouncement, in a June 5 Washington Post column, that China, in cahoots with Cuba, was drilling for oil just 60 miles off the Florida shore.

Panic ensued. Prognosticators prognosticated. Bloviators bloviated. Fearmongers fearmonged.

The world-class polluting Chinese, they shouted, are allowed to drill closer to our shores than even our own oil companies! How dare they out-exploit us in our own back yard?

Dick Cheney was the first to jump on the China-Cuba oil connection bandwagon. In a speech before the U.S. Chamber of Commerce on June 11, he said:

"Oil is being drilled right now 60 miles off the coast of Florida. But we're not doing it. The Chinese are, in cooperation with the Cuban government. Even the communists have figured out that a good answer to high prices is more supply."

http://www.highspringsherald.com/articles/2008/07/04/news/news19.txt

Minnesota Independent's Paul Schmelzer writes that Norm Coleman is trafficking in a debunked claim about Chinese drilling off the Cuban coast. Factcheck.org says China negotiated an offshore Cuban lease, but may only explore, not drill. No Chinese companies are involved. Coleman's quote is hedgier than Dick Cheney's original drilling falsehood but still wrong: "The Chinese are able to begin operating 90 miles off shore by working with the Cubans." Hey, major media — gonna cover this?

http://www.minnpost.com/dailyglean/...an_win_a_date_with_obama_illegal_in_minnesota

The biggest laugh Viper, however, is that you blamed me for perpetrating this myth.....you gotta do more research.

 

[Viper Daimao]

I blamed you for perpetrating it? I most certainly did not.

Additionally I'll remind you that the GOP also debunked the claim

U.S. Sen. Mel Martinez, a Florida Republican, recently refuted Cheney and other drilling proponents.

 

[SteveGrenard]

I blamed you for perpetrating it? I most certainly did not.

Additionally I'll remind you that the GOP also debunked the claim

The GOP? That's a rather sweeping statement. Senator Martinez is but one of a small number of Republicans who, guess what?, are opposed to off shore drilling; in Martinez' case off shore Florida which would include the areas shown on the above map.

I lost count of the number of Republicans who repeated the claim and have used it publicly to argue for off shore drilling. The China-Cuba claim was clearly made by the GOP, and you provide one person who debunks it who is a member of the GOP? Off the top of my head besides VP Cheney there's Nelson, Kirk, McCain, Giuliani, .... the GOP and its supporters (e.g. Fox News) got caught spreading a lie. Nothing new there. They've been at it since September 12, 2001.

No, you didn't blame me for "perpetrating" it, just telling a lie and spouting an urban legend
which was Martinez' term by the way. You just forgot to tell readers why... because big names in the GOP started it. You forgot to consider the fact that Zapata has a lot to gain if this lie were believed and off shore drilling was passed in the U.S. You forgot the gray area we are still not sure of which is an agreement with China MAY exist on exploration. I am sure if this is true, and who the heck knows, the Chinese won't be doing it for the fun of it. I think we'll have to wait and see.

In the meantime Senator Martinez can go to Key West, take a chopper ride, and not see any oil rigs. That will make him very happy.

 

[CFLarsen]

Steve,

Please address post #37.

 

[SteveGrenard]

I assume you mean the part about the Nazi connection? Let me emphasize I do not subscribe to any theory including this one but bring it to your attention because your pleas for additional information seems to indicate you are not aware of this CT aspect of the JFK assasination.

http://www.maebrussell.com/Mae Brussell Articles/Nazi Connection to JFK Assass.html


You might also want to check out or Google The Torbit or Torbitt (spelling?) Document.

http://books.google.com/books?hl=en...a=X&oi=book_result&resnum=5&ct=result#PPP1,M1

 

[Viper Daimao]

The GOP? That's a rather sweeping statement. Senator Martinez is but one of a small number of Republicans who, guess what?, are opposed to off shore drilling; in Martinez' case off shore Florida which would include the areas shown on the above map.

I lost count of the number of Republicans who repeated the claim and have used it publicly to argue for off shore drilling. The China-Cuba claim was clearly made by the GOP, and you provide one person who debunks it who is a member of the GOP? Off the top of my head besides VP Cheney there's Nelson, Kirk, McCain, Giuliani, .... the GOP and its supporters (e.g. Fox News) got caught spreading a lie. Nothing new there. They've been at it since September 12, 2001.

No, you didn't blame me for "perpetrating" it, just telling a lie and spouting an urban legend
which was Martinez' term by the way. You just forgot to tell readers why... because big names in the GOP started it. You forgot to consider the fact that Zapata has a lot to gain if this lie were believed and off shore drilling was passed in the U.S. You forgot the gray area we are still not sure of which is an agreement with China MAY exist on exploration. I am sure if this is true, and who the heck knows, the Chinese won't be doing it for the fun of it. I think we'll have to wait and see.

In the meantime Senator Martinez can go to Key West, take a chopper ride, and not see any oil rigs. That will make him very happy.

I thank you for your retraction of your slander against me.

I also do not believe anything else you say here as you provide no evidence, simply more wild claims, and you have been shown to be wrong in the past with your claims.

 

[CFLarsen]

I assume

The whole of post #37.

 

[SteveGrenard]

Then, you are quoting something that you can't verify - and don't care if you can.

You seriously expect posters here to go out and verify the quotes or publications of others? If so, 90% of the back-up quotes on this forum need to have this applied. Quotes speak for themselves. You can either agree ir disagree.

Steve, it doesn't matter if it makes sense to people. Astrology makes sense to some people. Fath healing makes sense to some people. Mediumship makes sense to some people - you included.

It makes absolute sense that something either makes sense or doesn't make sense to a reader or listener or observer. What kind of nonsense are you spouting now?

No, you didn't. You opened the possibility that it was Nazi influence that both JFK and RFK. Now, you back down from that.

This was responded to above.

Once again, you try to twist things. I asked you which "Nazis" you meant. I didn't say I wasn't familiar with the ones you now mention.

See the reference I provided previously.

There were many groups who found JFK/RFK's support for civil rights "too much to bear". Why specifically mention the American Nazi Party and the neo-Nazi groups? Why do you want these groups to be connected to the Bush family? Or, is it the other way around? You want the Bushes to be connected to Nazis?

See reference provided previously. It would seem from your remark that you are defending the Nazis as one among many who had a gripe with JFK and that it was justifiable. Are you saying those with a grudge against JFK had legitimate complaints including the Nazis?

That doesn't answer the question. I asked if you think the Nazis or Nazi influence and power conspired to kill JFK. Do you?

I don't personally have reason think so but if you read my assertion I said there were some who could make such a case. You choose to ignore my original statement. I then provided you with the evidence of those who would make such a case. This is the conspiracies subforum.

The issue of the JFK or RFK assasinations are a derail and are way off topic for the argument brought up in the OP.

 

[CFLarsen]

You seriously expect posters here to go out the verify the quotes or publications of others? If so, 90% of the back-up quotes on this forum need to have this applied. Quotes speak for themselves. You can either agree ir disagree.

Steve, it isn't a question of agreeing or disagreeing with what the person being quoted was saying.

It's a question of whether or not the person actually said it.

You can not provide evidence that he did. That you refuse to recognize this is evidence that you have no problems spreading lies that you know are lies.

This was responded to above.

It doesn't change the fact: You opened the possibility that it was Nazi influence that both JFK and RFK. Now, you back down from that.

See reference provided previously.

The only reference to Bush in that load of conspiracy crap is this:

1974-1977: Under George Bush, director of CIA, Streikher sent to Africa and Middle East.

If that links George Bush to the Nazis, then you are even deeper connected to them. Here's the evidence.

I don't personally have reason think so

Then, all you want to do is spread lies and misinformation.

The issue of the JFK or RFKL assasinations are a derail and are way off topic for the argument brought up in the OP.

Then, don't talk about it yourself:

You can probably make a case that it was Nazi influence that killed both John and Robert Kennedy. JFK was initially tough on Communist Cuba but was considered soft when he backed out of supporting the Bay of Pigs invasion. Both he and Bobby's support for civil rights in the U.S. could have been too much for the Nazis to bear. JFK also equivocated on another anti-communist effort, the Viet Nam conflict which was left to his survivor, Johnson, to prosecute and his successor, Nixon, to end, in failure. So the Nazis or Nazi influence and power conspired to kill JFK..?

 

[SteveGrenard]

Steve, it isn't a question of agreeing or disagreeing with what the person being quoted was saying.

It's a question of whether or not the person actually said it.

I provided you with the sources available on the subject. No more, no less. It is most certainly up to the reader to decide on the credibility of any source.

You can not provide evidence that he did. That you refuse to recognize this is evidence that you have no problems spreading lies that you know are lies.

I did not render any judgement as to whether a quoted source was a lie or not. That is up to you. Some of what was postulated may be a lie, some may not. I have no way of knowing and neither do you.

It doesn't change the fact: You opened the possibility that it was Nazi influence that both JFK and RFK. Now, you back down from that.

Indeed. What I said, again, is that some have made this case. I did not say it was true, I did not say I bought it myself.

 

[SteveGrenard]

1974-1977: Under George Bush, director of CIA, Streikher sent to Africa and Middle East.
If that links George Bush to the Nazis, then you are even deeper connected to them. Here's the evidence.

This deserves a separate reply. Mainly because it is the biggest crock of libel you have ever
came up with. There are hundreds, no, thousands of Grenard's in the world and the Grenard referred to here is no member of my family or me. I was born in the U.S., my parents were born in the U.S. My grandparents came from Europe in the 1880s. My father was an officer in the U.S. Army during WW II and fought the Nazis. His brother, my uncle, landed at Normandy and fought the Nazis in France. You, Mr. Larsen, have now managed to make a accusation that goes far beyond anything you have done before. Perhaps one can provide a list of all the Larsen-named Nazi collaborators living in Denmark during WW II? Wouldn't that be fun? I betcha there were even a few Claus Larsens as well.

If you read the reference provided you would see that the Bush family is linked to the Nazis in other ways, through Prescott Bush and his position at a well known investment bank that did business with the Third Reich and accepted funds from them to invest. Again, this is not me owning this information, it is others who have made the case for it.

Then, all you want to do is spread lies and misinformation.

It is not a lie that some have made a case against Nazi elements in the U.S. as
influencing the decision to assasinate JFK. I have provided proof of that implication.

You have not responded to my question regarding your sympathies to the Nazi cause yet?

Then, don't talk about it yourself:

I am sure you would like that. You obviously don't want to see the Nazis held responsible, even if only an implication or in conversation, for anything like the assasination of JFK.
In the meantime please don't tell me what not to talk about. I will not censor you either.

 

[CFLarsen]

I provided you with the sources available on the subject. No more, no less. It is most certainly up to the reader to decide on the credibility of any source.

There are no "sources", Steve. You are using a quote you cannot verify. That means you are knowingly using misinformation.

I did not render any judgement as to whether a quoted source was a lie or not. That is up to you. Some of what was postulated may be a lie, some may not. I have no way of knowing and neither do you.

But we do know that you lie, Steve. You have done it before, and you are doing it, right here in this thread. And you know you are lying.

Indeed. What I said, again, is that some have made this case. I did not say it was true, I did not say I bought it myself.

But you opened up for the possibility, only to back down when you were challenged.

 

[SteveGrenard]

There are no "sources", Steve. You are using a quote you cannot verify. That means you are knowingly using misinformation.

I am not using a quote I cannot verify. I am using the following document which was posted here earlier as well:

http://www.prouty.org/brussell/nazi-1.html

You're the one that's lying.

But we do know that you lie, Steve. You have done it before, and you are doing it, right here in this thread. And you know you are lying.

How am I lying about the existence of the above CT regarding the Nazis and the JFK assasination. It's right there above for you to read if you would even bother letting the facts get in the way of your lies. If anybody is lying, it's you.

But you opened up for the possibility, only to back down when you were challenged.

I did no such thing. I provided you once, and now here again, with the Mae Brussell review of the Nazi Connection to the JFK Assasination. If you think the late Mae Brussell is a figment of my imagination Google her.

Why are you hallucinating what your mind wants you to think? This is very scary Claus.

 

[CFLarsen]

I am not using a quote I cannot verify.

That is a bald-faced lie.

You posted this quote in post #7:

"If the people were to ever find out what we have done, we would be chased down the streets and lynched." – George H W Bush, cited in the June 1992 Sarah McClendon Newsletter.

When asked to produce this newsletter, you replied:

This was a quote by someone else and registered as thus. I do not have this newsletter.

When you claim you can "verify" this quote, you are lying.

How am I lying about the existence of the above CT regarding the Nazis and the JFK assasination. It's right there above for you to read if you would even bother letting the facts get in the way of your lies. If anybody is lying, it's you.

I am not saying you lie about the existence of a conspiracy theory. I am saying that you lie about other things.

I did no such thing.

That is a bald-faced lie:

You can probably make a case that it was Nazi influence that killed both John and Robert Kennedy. JFK was initially tough on Communist Cuba but was considered soft when he backed out of supporting the Bay of Pigs invasion. Both he and Bobby's support for civil rights in the U.S. could have been too much for the Nazis to bear. JFK also equivocated on another anti-communist effort, the Viet Nam conflict which was left to his survivor, Johnson, to prosecute and his successor, Nixon, to end, in failure. So the Nazis or Nazi influence and power conspired to kill JFK..?

I provided you once, and now here again, with the Mae Brussell review of the Nazi Connection to the JFK Assasination. If you think the late Mae Brussell is a figment of my imagination Google her.

Why are you hallucinating what your mind wants you to think? This is very scary Claus.

The evidence is clear. You have lied repeatedly in this thread. You have spread misinformation in this thread.

 

[SteveGrenard]

We're all done here. I cannot respond to someone who lazily asks imprecise questions without subjects or objects. Anyway:

F L Y B Y N E W SSep 19, 2005 ... You can Google "Sarah McClendon June 1992 newsletter" and click away until you're "google-eyed" if you like, or you can take my word for it. ...
www.flybynews.com/cgi-local/newspro/viewnews.cgi?newsid1127141457,15227, - 22k

in o/w google Sarah McClendon yourself.

 

[CFLarsen]

No evidence, then.

We're done alright.