WTC collapses - Layman's terms again

Newton's Bit, Myriad, Architect, and anyone else involved in building construction: How would you sum up Heiwa's mistakes for a non-engineering layman like me? I think I've identified some on my own from just observing the thread, but again, I'm no engineer (or architect! :)).

  1. Heiwa seems to be arguing that the structure below, by virtue of it being a steel construction, has more ability to absorb the energy of the collapse than anyone is crediting it with having.
  2. He also seems to be trying to redefine the events in the collapse initiation zone, to what end I'm unfortunately not following.
  3. He also ignores the magnitude of the potential energy imparted by the force of gravity on the structure (this might be related to point 1).
  4. He's misunderstanding how the structure of the towers transmit/redistribute the collapse forces.
Have I got any of that right? If not, how would you all put it to someone like me?
 
Well, he seems to think that there's a difference between "buckling" and the sort of bending or warping failure you might see in a structural member under intense heat and/or pressure, for one.
 
Last edited:
Newton's Bit, Myriad, Architect, and anyone else involved in building construction: How would you sum up Heiwa's mistakes for a non-engineering layman like me? I think I've identified some on my own from just observing the thread, but again, I'm no engineer (or architect! :)).

  1. Heiwa seems to be arguing that the structure below, by virtue of it being a steel construction, has more ability to absorb the energy of the collapse than anyone is crediting it with having.
  2. He also seems to be trying to redefine the events in the collapse initiation zone, to what end I'm unfortunately not following.
  3. He also ignores the magnitude of the potential energy imparted by the force of gravity on the structure (this might be related to point 1).
  4. He's misunderstanding how the structure of the towers transmit/redistribute the collapse forces.
Have I got any of that right? If not, how would you all put it to someone like me?

No, Heiwa is arguing that if you remove supports below the upper block, the upper block will twist, change geometry, deform and be subject to local failures inside itself, i.e. it does not remain one solid, upper block any more. Reason is that the forces transmitted by the supports are no longer transmitted to the structure below. The forces are applied to the upper block only.

Heiwa is thus arguing that if you remove supports below the upper block, the structure below is evidently unloaded!! Reason is that the force transmitted by the support is no longer transmitted.

Heiwa is arguing that removing supports does not imply free fall. There are other supports preventing that.

Heiwa argues that if you remove a certain number of supports the upper block may be so deformed that parts of the upper block displace downwards (no free fall) and make contact with the structure below (no impact, just contact).

Heiwa argues that when contact takes place the stronger structure will evidently destroy the weaker structure at the contact point, e.g. if a thin floor of the upper block makes contact with a vertical column below, the vertical column below will punch a hole in the floor of the upper block.

Etc, etc. Anybody arguing that the upper block destroys the structure below when supports are removed does not know anything about failures of multi-parts steel structures. They should study, e.g. ship collisions.

Advice! Take a towel, make it wet, cool it in a freezer 10 minutes, wrap it around you head and read my article at http://heiwaco.tripod.com/nist3.htm a couple of times. If your mother asks you what you are doing, tell her also to read the article.
 
No, Heiwa is arguing that if you remove supports below the upper block, the upper block will twist, change geometry, deform and be subject to local failures inside itself, i.e. it does not remain one solid, upper block any more. Reason is that the forces transmitted by the supports are no longer transmitted to the structure below. The forces are applied to the upper block only.

Heiwa is thus arguing that if you remove supports below the upper block, the structure below is evidently unloaded!! Reason is that the force transmitted by the support is no longer transmitted.

Heiwa is arguing that removing supports does not imply free fall. There are other supports preventing that.

Heiwa argues that if you remove a certain number of supports the upper block may be so deformed that parts of the upper block displace downwards (no free fall) and make contact with the structure below (no impact, just contact).

Heiwa argues that when contact takes place the stronger structure will evidently destroy the weaker structure at the contact point, e.g. if a thin floor of the upper block makes contact with a vertical column below, the vertical column below will punch a hole in the floor of the upper block.

Etc, etc. Anybody arguing that the upper block destroys the structure below when supports are removed does not know anything about failures of multi-parts steel structures. They should study, e.g. ship collisions.

Advice! Take a towel, make it wet, cool it in a freezer 10 minutes, wrap it around you head and read my article at http://heiwaco.tripod.com/nist3.htm a couple of times. If your mother asks you what you are doing, tell her also to read the article.
And this is why no one takes him seriously.


Advice! Take a towel, make it wet, cool it in a freezer 10 minutes, wrap it around you head and read my article at http://heiwaco.tripod.com/nist3.htm a couple of times. If your mother asks you what you are doing, tell her also to read the article

I other words :numb your brain!
 
Last edited:
Professionally speaking, I'd say that his grasp of building structures and evidencial based analysis was somewhere between ◊◊◊◊-all and non-existent.
 
Advice to you, Heiwa: Listen to the people correcting your mistakes in these threads. Frankly, they're more credible than you are.

No, Heiwa is arguing that if you remove supports below the upper block, the upper block will twist, change geometry, deform and be subject to local failures inside itself, i.e. it does not remain one solid, upper block any more. Reason is that the forces transmitted by the supports are no longer transmitted to the structure below. The forces are applied to the upper block only.

And what? The upper block hangs in the air?

When the supports are removed, the upper block falls. The gravitational potential energy then gets converted into kinetic energy, which itself gets transmitted to the lower block when the upper block falls on it! The mass is still there regardless of whether it's a solid block or not, and therefore the gravitational PE is still there! Nothing about what you said removes any of that!

Jesus Christ!... I'm not an engineer, and even I understand this.

Heiwa is thus arguing that if you remove supports below the upper block, the structure below is evidently unloaded!! Reason is that the force transmitted by the support is no longer transmitted.

Heiwa is arguing that removing supports does not imply free fall. There are other supports preventing that.

And those other supports are now overloaded! And it's up to you to prove that those remaining supports actually subtract enough energy from the falling upper section to allow the lower sections to absorb the KE that falling upper section applies when it hits. I don't see that calculation anywhere.

Again, I'm not a damn engineer, and again, I still grasp the gist of what's wrong with your argument.

Heiwa argues that if you remove a certain number of supports the upper block may be so deformed that parts of the upper block displace downwards (no free fall) and make contact with the structure below (no impact, just contact).

:confused: What?? If the upper section is moving into "contact" with the lower section, it IS impacting. The only questions are the amount of energy delivered by the upper section in making the "contact", and how much energy the lower block can handle. So again, how much energy is subtracted by the remaining supports? Again, you do not provide any proof that there's sufficient "absorption" to even slow the collapse, let alone arrest it. And that's assuming those supports haven't themselves failed by this point to begin with; I'll let the resident experts comment towards that detail.

Again, I am not an engineer yadda yadda ibid!

Heiwa argues that when contact takes place the stronger structure will evidently destroy the weaker structure at the contact point, e.g. if a thin floor of the upper block makes contact with a vertical column below, the vertical column below will punch a hole in the floor of the upper block.

Etc, etc. Anybody arguing that the upper block destroys the structure below when supports are removed does not know anything about failures of multi-parts steel structures. They should study, e.g. ship collisions.

And you still have to establish how much energy that consumes, and what state the vertical column below would be in after that collision. And whether that vertical column below has had it's own supports compromised by the collision or by other components of the falling block hitting elsewhere. And so on.

And for the love of God, you make the same mistake that Dictator Cheney does in his threads: You ignore the ovewhelming amount of energy in the system due to gravity! It doesn't matter whether there was "no free fall" or not, nor does it matter what the specific sequence of events are, nor does it matter whether the upper block stays intact or separates into its constituent components, what matters is whether the energy released is absorbed by the lower sections or not. And you do not demonstrate quantitatively that it does! Not here, nor in your paper! You either try to establish that the solidity of the upper block is significant, or you try to establish that misalignments are significant, and you completely bypass the question of energy release vs. absorption in the lower block.

For the umpteenth time, I'm not even an engineer, an architect, or anyone involved in construction, and even blatantly ignorant I can see this problem. Do you realize how bad your thesis is when I of all people can critique it? Me, a computer professional with nothing more than a single year of undergraduate physics in college? If you want to make an impact with your argument, stop handwaving and prove to the satisfaction of Newton's Bit, R.Mackey, Apollo20, Architect, rwguinn, Mindanin, Myriad, Dave Rogers, UK Dave, and/or anyone else I've left out that you've indeed properly accounted for the gravitational PE and indeed properly calculated the ability of the lower section to absorb the energy release. Maybe then we'll take you seriously. But not until you've done that, and not until you've stopped presenting canards about solid blocks or misalignments and stopped creating models that do not properly reflect the Twin Towers composition or collapse either.

Advice! Take a towel, make it wet, cool it in a freezer 10 minutes, wrap it around you head and read my article at http://heiwaco.tripod.com/nist3.htm a couple of times. If your mother asks you what you are doing, tell her also to read the article.

Advice! Start proving that you've indeed modeled the towers properly and demonstrate that you've calculated the energies properly. Until then, you'll be the one in need of a headtoweling.
 
Okay, engineers, physicists, and other trustworthy individuals here (the names I normally name i.e. Mackey, Architect, Newton's Bit, etc.). I've left myself hanging out there with that last post. If there's any problem with my post above, please correct it. Don't spare me just because I'm arguing with Heiwa here (not that any of you would). It's more important that the proper information is posted.
 
No, it seemed a perfectly reasonable post to me, mate.


Apart from you admitting to being an IT person, of course.
 
Apart from you admitting to being an IT person, of course.


:p Pfffffffffffft!!!!

If it weren't for us, you'd still be on slide rules and paper!

... except for those times the systems fail, and you have to go back to slide rules and paper... :boggled::o:(... or those times we upgrade... or those times we gotta apply all those damn patches...
 
Slide rules? Heard my dad talk about them.

In the UK we have these things called calculators which we used before PCs, you know!
 
Okay, engineers, physicists, and other trustworthy individuals here (the names I normally name i.e. Mackey, Architect, Newton's Bit, etc.). I've left myself hanging out there with that last post. If there's any problem with my post above, please correct it. Don't spare me just because I'm arguing with Heiwa here (not that any of you would). It's more important that the proper information is posted.

You're doing fine

:p Pfffffffffffft!!!!

If it weren't for us, you'd still be on slide rules and paper!

... except for those times the systems fail, and you have to go back to slide rules and paper... :boggled::o:(... or those times we upgrade... or those times we gotta apply all those damn patches...
Or the times the customer is stuck in a time warp and don't believe in all them new-fangled things...
 
Myriad: and now you know what Heiwa's specialty is: write B.S. and waste our time.


Actually, what Heiwa appears to be doing is testing various arguments to see if he can find one that is sufficiently deceptive to convince people of something he seems to understand himself is a falsehood: that NIST's analysis of the reasons for the towers' collapse is wrong in some fundamental, simple to explain way.

I've been aware of this since I first started responding to his posts linking his essays. Several of those essays have begun with the same "quotation" from the NIST report. That quotation has been deceptively manipulated to change its apparent meaning from what the NIST report actually said.

The important implication is that this is not a case of Heiwa misinterpreting the report. He has to have understood correctly what it intended to say, in order to have manipulated it as he did to make it appear to say something different.

(I did at one point consider that he might have merely copied the deceptively redacted passage from some other source. But, since I've pointed out the deception, with no response from Heiwa except to make excuses for it (this, for a deliberate misquotation that would get him fired from any respectable academic or journalist position). Dishonesty remains the only reasonable possiblity.)

And everything he's posted here since then has remained consistent with the same dishonest pattern. When one silly analogy is refuted he comes up with another. When his pretense of understanding structural engineering failed because he could not pass the simple tests people with real structural engineering knowledge put him to, he began bleating about his expertise (which may actually exist this time) in ship collisions instead.

This line of argument fails even more readily, because it's easily calculated that the world's largest ship crashing at a speed faster than it's ever cruised would have less than 1/30th of the mechanical energy that's available to one WTC tower (and I'd bet it would be more than 1/30th destroyed in the process!) The fractions for more typical ship collisions (such as those whose effects have actually been observed in the real world) are in the hudredths to ten-thousandths range. So now, he has to argue that the upper towers couldn't release that energy because they never actually fell down. (Or, only slightly less absurdly, that they failed to fall down in just the right way to release their gravitational potential energy!)

But, that doesn't matter. When he sees that lying about the "very small" energy at work in the towers as compared to the "very large" energy of ship collisions doesn't work, he'll invent another. But to no avail. The ship, if you'll pardon the expression, has sailed.

Like all other Truthers, he's now in more or less the same position as the the company that sold all those Pet Rocks in 1975, when it came time to invent their next big hit product.

Let him lie.

Respectfully,
Myriad
 
Last edited:
Slide rules? Heard my dad talk about them.

In the UK we have these things called calculators which we used before PCs, you know!

Liar! I've watched Life on Mars, I know what life was like in the 70's on your island. Barbarians, all of you!
 
And what? The upper block hangs in the air?

When the supports are removed, the upper block falls. The gravitational potential energy then gets converted into kinetic energy, which itself gets transmitted to the lower block when the upper block falls on it! The mass is still there regardless of whether it's a solid block or not, and therefore the gravitational PE is still there! Nothing about what you said removes any of that!

Advice! Start proving that you've indeed modeled the towers properly and demonstrate that you've calculated the energies properly. Until then, you'll be the one in need of a headtoweling.

You forgot the wet, cool towel.

Nist & Co assume there is only one upper block, one upper mass, one support, one force, one structure below. Evidently if you remove the one support the one force acting on the one block has no other choice than to take the only way possible, one displacement downwards and cause one free fall. This is the infamous one-dimensional analysis that Greening admits is a little crude but still proves that gravity only driven collapse is, maybe, possible. As non-alignment is not possible in this narrow world one impact is the result ... and confusingly the one structure below is pushed down, etc. Finally the upper block is pushed up and disappears. Voilà! Marvellous.

But there is not one support! There are 280+ supports spread around on 4000 m² (2-D) and then the upper block is above (3-D).

So when you start removing supports a lot of things happens in the real 3-D world ... as explained in my article. Easy to model. Evidently the upper block deforms, changes geometry and locations before any free fall will ever occur. Actually the deformations, changes of geometry and locations will initiate what in the end is known as collapse arrest. Collapse arrest is when a stable state of a partially damaged structure has developed. Happens every time in 3-D. But never in 1-D. Narrow minds only work in 1-D with their 1-D equations.
 
Actually, what Heiwa appears to be doing is testing various arguments to see if he can find one that is sufficiently deceptive to convince people of something he seems to understand himself is a falsehood: that NIST's analysis of the reasons for the towers' collapse is wrong in some fundamental, simple to explain way.

I've been aware of this since I first started responding to his posts linking his essays. Several of those essays have begun with the same "quotation" from the NIST report. That quotation has been deceptively manipulated to change its apparent meaning from what the NIST report actually said.

The important implication is that this is not a case of Heiwa misinterpreting the report. He has to have understood correctly what it intended to say, in order to have manipulated it as he did to make it appear to say something different.

(I did at one point consider that he might have merely copied the deceptively redacted passage from some other source. But, since I've pointed out the deception, with no response from Heiwa except to make excuses for it (this, for a deliberate misquotation that would get him fired from any respectable academic or journalist position). Dishonesty remains the only reasonable possiblity.)

And everything he's posted here since then has remained consistent with the same dishonest pattern. When one silly analogy is refuted he comes up with another. When his pretense of understanding structural engineering failed because he could not pass the simple tests people with real structural engineering knowledge put him to, he began bleating about his expertise (which may actually exist this time) in ship collisions instead.

This line of argument fails even more readily, because it's easily calculated that the world's largest ship crashing at a speed faster than it's ever cruised would have less than 1/30th of the mechanical energy that's available to one WTC tower (and I'd bet it would be more than 1/30th destroyed in the process!) The fractions for more typical ship collisions (such as those whose effects have actually been observed in the real world) are in the hudredths to ten-thousandths range. So now, he has to argue that the upper towers couldn't release that energy because they never actually fell down. (Or, only slightly less absurdly, that they failed to fall down in just the right way to release their gravitational potential energy!)

But, that doesn't matter. When he sees that lying about the "very small" energy at work in the towers as compared to the "very large" energy of ship collisions doesn't work, he'll invent another. But to no avail. The ship, if you'll pardon the expression, has sailed.

Like all other Truthers, he's now in more or less the same position as the the company that sold all those Pet Rocks in 1975, when it came time to invent their next big hit product.

Let him lie.

Respectfully,
Myriad

According NIST: "The release of potential energy (PE) due to downward movement of the building mass above the buckled columns exceeded the strain energy (SE) that could be absorbed by the structure. Global collapse ensued." Mis-quoted? Any evidence for anything in this infamous quote? I have not seen any. Which I point out in a friendly and lively way. Don't call me dishonest. I just play the piano. What's wrong with the music?
 
If you're not dishonest, then you're incompetent. I really don't care which.
 

Back
Top Bottom