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Written 9-12-01

Re: THIS JUST IN

King of the Americas said:
The truely brave person builds in the face of evil and only kills when absolutely nessecary.

KOOKS

---
SUMMATION: The United States by invading Iraq, is not 'brave' and is in fact "KOOKY" for doing so.

Exactly. Not American's supported this war nor do we believe it was the right or correct thing to do, nor do all American's believe how the Iraq situation is being handled now is appropriate.


Look, people kill for a lOT of different reasons, ONE of which being the protection of their homeland. To IGNORE this motive completely isa folly in my opinion, and will only lead to worsening attacks.

But sadly, the attacks that took place on 9-11 was not to protect anyone's homeland, but to encourage and increase hate. These were not rational people run by a rational ideal, but people blinded by religious bigotry; these were fanatics.

I do agree that the United States has made some severe mistakes and have brought corruption and exploitation to many third world countries, and that the US government has unfairly strong armed many a nation, but IMHO, 9-11 had little to do with that. Yes, it was a strike at symbols, but more symbols of what *they* dislike because they are fanatics rather than symbols of dislike of the actions this country has taken.
 
Upchurch said:
NPR this morning had a piece about the effects of the Iraqi war on Al Queda. I don't remember what was exactly said (I was still waking up), but the gist was that our invasion and occupation of Iraq is fueling muslim hatred of America and there have been massive amounts of recruits to Al Queda. While those in charge of Al Queda pre-9/11 are mostly gone, there are plenty of new members to replace and fill the ranks.

Essentially, we played into the islamic fundamentalists' hands.

I don't really believe this at all.

We need to take a long-term view of the terrorist problem. So first I want to lay out a bit of what I think the problem is. Fascist islam (which is basically what the terrorists believe in) is a delusional belief system. It denies reality. Many in the arab world, and not just the terrorists, subscribe to ideas with absolutely no connection to reality, and they often even seem to claim belief in contradictory things. Here's one example of such a contradiction: belief that the 9/11 attacks were a justified retaliation against the US and belief that it was carried out by the CIA or Mossad and not Islamic terrorists. The terrorists want to start a world war, because they think they can win. They cannot. If they get what they want (a total war between arabs and the west), they will lose, and very badly. It's just like with the Palestinian terrorists: they're constantly trying to escalate the cycle of violence, but if the cycle ever did TRULY spiral out of control, it would be the palestinians, not the Israelis, who would be eradicated. The terrorists deny reality. And they prosper in an environment that also denies reality, where ironies like the arab league (which has no freely elected democratic leaders) criticising the legitimacy of the Iraqi governing council for not being democratically elected happen on a regular basis, where the rest of the arab world was actually shocked that the Iraqi army wouldn't put up more of a fight to defend the man who made Iraq such a miserable place. As long as delusional belief systems dominate (and they extend FAR beyond the terrorists themselves), the terrorists will find it easy to prosper. Now here's a key point: we are already the terrorist's enemy. They can always redirect the frustration of people on the streat against us, regardless of what we do. And as long as oppressive regimes dominate the middle east as they do now, there will always be plenty of problems that can be unfairly blamed on us, and plenty of governments willing to redirect anger properly aimed at them to the nearest available scapegoat. In other words, not only can we not appease the terrorists, but even trying to appease the ordinary arab on the street is not going to solve the problem.

What we need to do is break the delusional belief systems. And invading Iraq was actually part of that. It is waking up parts of the arab world to the fact that their concept of reality was wrong. Iraq did not stand up against our invasion. Saddam was not the hero the rest of the arab world wanted to believe. The Iraqi people are glad to see Saddam go, even if it required a US invasion, and the rest of the arab world is still struggling with reality slapping them in the face on this one. And if we succeed in creating democracy in Iraq, they will also have to face the fact that the only democracy in the region was brought about BY the americans. They may finally begin to wake up to the fact that radical islam holds no solutions to their problems. Our invasion does indeed stir up passions, and may provide a short-term boost to terrorist recruiting. But that's not as important in the long run as waking people up to reality. People operating under rational belief systems do not pilot planes into buildings full of civilians for a cause that cannot be won, even if they hate us. I think waking the arab world to the reality they live in is more important than tiptoeing around their sensibilities in hopes of not rileing the terrorists.
 
To Chani:

Look what happens when I apply my previous reasoning"

"But sadly, the attacks that took place on Iraq were not to protect anyone's homeland, but to encourage and increase hate. These were not rational people run by a rational ideal, but people blinded by religious bigotry; these were fanatics. "
 
Islamic terrorists don't attack the West because of what we do.


They attack the West because of what we are.
 
EXACTLY!!!

:mad:

You guys are ignoring 'emplied motive' and submitting your own.

In Osama's Tapes...(Why do I feel like that deserves a drum rap?), he gives you verbalized and recorded motive. WHY are you ignoring that!?!?!

Yeah, they don'y like what Britney and Madonna do on stage, but that isn't the reason they are sending people over here to die. They are here because they see us as invading their homeland, and NOW they see us as they to change their very culture by setting up a base in Iraq, who also happens to be the world's 4th largest oil supply...

Oh COME ON!?!?!?!?

Let's be real here.
 
King of the Americas said:
You guys are ignoring 'emplied motive' and submitting your own.
Sorry? What implied motive? Osama speaks for Al Queda, not Iraq and Saddam. I, personally was ignoring Osama because he has no relevence to the Iraqi war.

As for why "they" hate us, I'm asking for what specifically Kodiak was refering to.
 
Upchurch said:

Statements by Al-Qa'ida spokesman:
http://www.memri.org/bin/articles.cgi?Page=archives&Area=sd&ID=SP38802

He never puts in in quite the words your looking for, but I think it's clear nonetheless that America's crime is not simply its actions.

"America is the head of heresy in our modern world, and it leads an infidel democratic regime that is based upon separation of religion and state and on ruling the people by the people via legislating laws that contradict the way of Allah and permit what Allah has prohibited."
 
So WHAT!

My God has bigger balls than your God does, who gives a flying f*ck!?!?

Just so long as you are trying my kids they need do what your God says, I don't care what you do. You can THINK any damn thing you want, just don't try to 'invade my home and tell me what MY family is going to think.
 
Re: THIS JUST IN

King of the Americas said:
The truely brave person builds in the face of evil and only kills when absolutely nessecary.

KOOKS!

---

SUMMATION: The United States by invading Iraq, is not 'brave' and is in fact "KOOKY" for doing so.

Look, people kill for a lOT of different reasons, ONE of which being the protection of their homeland. To IGNORE this motive completely isa folly in my opinion, and will only lead to worsening attacks.

Well, despite the wrath and wroth I will draw, yes I do believe that GWB is a KOOK! But in democracy I only get to vote for president every four years. I do npt feel that the inavsion of Iraq will stop terrorism.

But the 9-11 bombers did not do so to 'protect thier homeland', most of them were from Saudi Arabia, which has yet to be invaded.

The 9-11 bombers were evil KOOKs they could have spent thier time and money to build lives and trust, then they would not be kooks, they would be hero's. Now they are just dead scumbags. I can't glorify them anymore than I would glorify a child molester, a rapist or a perpetrator of domestic violence.
 
King of the Americas said:
In Osama's Tapes...(Why do I feel like that deserves a drum rap?), he gives you verbalized and recorded motive. WHY are you ignoring that!?!?!

Nothing more than pretense.
 
Upchurch said:
NPR this morning had a piece about the effects of the Iraqi war on Al Queda. I don't remember what was exactly said (I was still waking up), but the gist was that our invasion and occupation of Iraq is fueling muslim hatred of America and there have been massive amounts of recruits to Al Queda. While those in charge of Al Queda pre-9/11 are mostly gone, there are plenty of new members to replace and fill the ranks.

Essentially, we played into the islamic fundamentalists' hands.

Exactly, all we have done is validate their ideologies, just liek we did with the Communsits by our actions in Korea, Vietnam, Cuba, and South America. Vietnam especially since they asked repeatedly for help from us and they di not was to work with the Chinese or Russians and did not beleive that conflict with the west was inevitable. We then denied that cooperation and attcked them, only proving to the Vietnamese that the Russians and Chinese were right, which they did not want to admit, but when they finally saw that they were right they decided to put up the fight.
 
Tony said:


And let Arafat continue to do the same?

I think we should encourage and defend Sharon, he is defending his country and his people from rabid fanatics.
There asre p[lenty of war criminals over there, I think that justice would involve trying them all for crimes against humanity. It would deplete the ranks of the PLO and the Israeli government.


The GM modified grain? I thought the euro-sissies were anti-GM.
I doubt they would turn down the golden rice and grain, excuse me but is Iraq in the EU? I missed that one.


You're blinded by your bigoted views on christianity.
Lots of yucks Tony, can you show me how Xianity is not a bigoted religion, the teachings of Jesus are widely ignored by his alleged followers. Whose propaganda wagon are you riding?

What evidence is there that suggests muslim fanatics in the middle east respect good will and non-violence?
What eveidence do you have that any of the factions have made a good faith effort to build trust?
And how do you propse we build trust when those governments force feed their populations anti-western propaganda?

The same way you build trust for the side that force feeds thier population anti islam propaganda.

Trust takes time and patience on all sides,
[sarcasm]but hey, lets raise another generation of hate filled kids, thats done greatr so far. Especialy in Bosnia. More hate thats what i say, it's what made America great.[/sarcasm]
 
King of the Americas said:

Just so long as you are trying my kids they need do what your God says, I don't care what you do. You can THINK any damn thing you want, just don't try to 'invade my home and tell me what MY family is going to think.

I'm not exactly sure who you're responding to, or what you're arguing against in this post. Are you arguing against our invasion of Iraq? If so, this is repleat with irony. Saddam was the one who was telling Iraqis what to think. We've given them the only free press in the arab world, so not only can they think whatever they want, they can even say it too.
 
Malachi151 said:

Exactly, all we have done is validate their ideologies, just liek we did with the Communsits by our actions in Korea, Vietnam, Cuba, and South America.

We haven't validated their ideology at all, we've shown how useless it really is. We demonstrated, quite contrary to their expectations, that Iraqis were not willing to rise up against the "western devil" invading their country in order to support Saddam, that given the choice between a western democracy and an arab dictator, the dictator is not in fact the lesser evil. There's a lot of confusion in the arab world about this, but it's no surprise to those not blinded by ideology (note that's not a reference to you).
 
"While I do NOT condone the taking of any innocent lives, I also can not discount the lives of those responsible for hijacking those planes. Human Life is paramount, and that means ALL human life. "

I don't buy this. Some people are better than others. Some lives are more valuable than others.
 
Brian said:
Some lives are more valuable than others.

Be careful about posting that in this forum!

Crossbow and a few select others will lambaste you as an unfeeling, indifferent, right-wing war monger...

I should know.
 
Kodiak said:


Be careful about posting that in this forum!

Crossbow and a few select others will lambaste you as an unfeeling, indifferent, right-wing war monger...

I should know.

Yes you should know, but I doubt that you do.

Brian was referring to a specific case and the role of specific individuals in that case.

As opposed to your more general statements about how some lives are worth more than others, and that killing is a necessary part of the modern state, and how the USA should get out of the UN, etc.
 
Ziggurat said:


We haven't validated their ideology at all, we've shown how useless it really is. We demonstrated, quite contrary to their expectations, that Iraqis were not willing to rise up against the "western devil" invading their country in order to support Saddam, that given the choice between a western democracy and an arab dictator, the dictator is not in fact the lesser evil. There's a lot of confusion in the arab world about this, but it's no surprise to those not blinded by ideology (note that's not a reference to you).

I was not talking about Saddam, I was talking about Al-Queda. The guys from Al-Queda hated Saddam too, it has validated the ideology of Islamic Fundamentalists that aggression is the way to do things.
 

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