• Quick note - the problem with Youtube videos not embedding on the forum appears to have been fixed, thanks to ZiprHead. If you do still see problems let me know.

Windows 11

Mongrel said:
Yes, its been several years and details have become fuzzy. But, even if you don't remember yourself or you don't believe me, you can easily find cases where even Windows 10 has had problems with hardware. You have an AMD SCSI Driver provided by Microsoft that was making computers unable to boot.. You had Intel drivers that were disabling audio. There are reports of users having problems with nvidia graphics . And that's just after a short web search.
Click to expand...
Both of those instance are drivers provided by the manufacturers, they're not created by Microsoft, and are provided through the "optional updates" so are not downloaded automatically. How is this a Windows problem?
Click to expand...
Ummmm... because these were drivers that were running on windows, and even though some may have been "optional", Microsoft still provided them.
Vs
My current gen AMD Radeon GPU is not supported natively in Linux. I have a display but lose functionality...
Click to expand...
Vs the computer where Windows would not recognize the ethernet card. Vs. the computer which locked up when I tried to plug in a USB webcam.

I'm not denying that there was not compatibility problems with Linux and your graphics. As I said before, the problem is that you have a huge combination of software, hardware, operating systems versions, and drivers, and that problems will occur with pretty much any operating system, and that Linux doesn't deserve to be criticized for having poor graphics support for your computer any more than Windows deserves to be criticized for not recognizing my ethernet adaptor.

I do have to wonder how long ago you actually tried that. I did a quick search and found that AMD has started offering support for Linux. (Not sure if your particular card would be covered though.) Not that I would recommend switching to Linux... if you are a regular gamer, you will probably be disappointed in the lack of Linux gaming options.
And, then of course there is the post 243 from eerok, where he posts the following:
You Can Install Windows 11 on Unsupported Hardware, But You Might Not Want To (lifehacker.com)
The upshot is that you can install Win11 on a non-qualifying PC from an ISO, but you might not be able to get updates in the future.
Click to expand...
I posted a link to a Linus Tech Tips video back in post 182 that said substantially the same thing. But if you're competent enough to fiddle with that then you're probably competent enough to foresee the repercussions
Click to expand...
Which is a double standard I find annoying...

Linux needs some "tinkering"? Its a bad operating system.
Windows needs some tinkering? Well, the people who are doing it will be skilled enough so its no big deal.

Got a computer that may be a year or 2 old but you are still more than happy with its performance? In a few years (after Microsoft drops support for Win10), you might not be able to easily upgrade to Win11, and if you do you may not get full support. Sounds like a pretty darn big hardware compatibility issue to me.

Windows users will head over to their local computer shop to plunk down hundreds of dollars on a new computer
Click to expand...
No one I know feels the need to run out and buy a PC just because they want to upgrade to Win 11
Click to expand...
While some people may not care about whatever new functionality Win11 brings, they may have concerns about running an OS that doesn't get regular security patches. Support for Windows 10 ends in only a few short years. Even if you're happy with the software that runs on it, and the way the interface works, over time it will become less secure as various vulnerabilities go unaddressed.
The majority of home users, in my experience, will run whatever their PC is until it breaks and then replace it, they probably don't even know that there's a new Windows version coming soon or that support for their OS shrivelled up 5 years ago.
Click to expand...
I agree... many/most users don't care about operating systems, drivers, etc. and just use what works. (My parents were running Vista until a couple of months ago until their computer hardware died, years after Microsoft dropped support. I shudder to think what sort of Viruses they may have picked up.)

That's why I suggested earlier that many of these users could have used Linux just as well as Windows... if they aren't swapping out their video cards or other hardware components, and aren't looking for the big killer app, and they don't have the skills to 'tinker' with drivers, then they might find Linux to be just as useful (if not more so) than Windows.
The reason Microsoft added Secure Boot and TPM compliance was to boost security at the hardware level as most users only care when they get infected
Click to expand...
Yes, I know why they added the new hardware checks.

We will have to see just how much it improved Windows security overall once Win11 starts being rolled out to a larger audience. It might help, but if your grandmother continues to forward emails that contain the attachment "I _am_totally_not_a_virus.exe" there could continue to be large security problems.
I rely on auto-updates for family members because I know they won't do it themselves.
Click to expand...
Which of course can have its own problems...

From: Techradar
January’s patches, which are KB4598242 and KB4598229 for the most recent versions of Windows 10...have suffered from gremlins including the seemingly commonly repeated bug whereby the installation fails with a mysterious error message....Windows Latest further reports that there is a more worrying boot loop issue that some people are affected by...

I'm not saying its a bad idea to do auto-updates, just that they have the chance of backfiring.
 
Segnosaur said:
But you made a specific claim about "most people who tried Linux switch back to Windows/Mac". That's a pretty specific claim, and not something that should be based on "Well, I tried it so I automatically know what others will do".

What exactly is "polishing"? Sounds pretty... vague to me. (Just because something works differently in Linux than it does in Windows doesn't mean its not "polished".)

And do you really think Windows itself is "polished"? I've certainly spent a lot of time hunting through various windows/sub-windows in Windows, looking for certain options. And remember, Window's "Polish" once gave us Win8, with a GUI that was almost completely scrapped in the next windows version.


Your "non-technical" user probably isn't going to be doing any of their own maintenance anyways. (I have certainly done my share of maintenance on the Windows computers of friends and family.) And once their computer is set up and running? Their experience will probably be no different than that of a Windows/Mac user. "Can I open up a web browser to look at facebook/my banking/pr0n? I can? good."


And I never claimed that Linux was better than Windows in all situations... some limited software options, lack of driver support in some cases, etc. are all problems with Linux.

My complaint is the double standard... people criticizing Linux for problems that exist in Windows.

I think the problem is that weasel-word "largely" works out of the box.

I currently have Linux running on an HP Elitebook laptop, a Dell Lattitude laptop, a Lenovo Thinkpad, a Dell Optiplex, and an older Dell desktop machine (not sure what type it is, but it originally had WinXP.) This is in addition to multiple installations of Linux as Virtual Machines. All of those installations worked fine "out of the box". All hardware was recognized by the OS at installation time. All of those machines are stable and do what I need.

On the other hand, when I originally tried to install Windows on one of the desktop machines, it couldn't recognize the ethernet card. I have had problems with Windows 10 VMs unexpectedly flaking out and becoming CPU bound. And when I tried to plug in a USB Webcam on a friend's Win10 machine, it just locked up. If I was relying only on my "own experience" I'd have to say that Windows seems to have more problems "out of the box" than Linux.

Now, I do recognize that my experience would not be typical of all users. Different hardware, different versions of Linux/Windows, etc. will all mean that both Windows and Linux installations will occasionally have problems, but in different circumstances. Just don't condemn Linux or claim Windows is somehow better "out of the box" when your results are probably based as much on chance combinations of hardware/software than they are on actual Windows stability.

Yet we're in a thread about Win11, an upgrade which may not run on older hardware (if at all). Doesn't sound like great "backwards compatibility".

More weasel words with the "properly written" GUI applications? If something isn't backwards compatible, just write it off as "not properly written"?

By the way, I've encountered programs (from even the WinXP era, never mind Win95) that simply won't run on later versions of Windows. Granted, I didn't try them on Windows 11, but I figure if something fails on Windows 7 or 8, Windows 11 won't be much better.

I have used older software on newer versions of Linux.

Admittedly I don't do that often. Its probably not as critical, since so much Linux software is open source that you can get newer versions of software for free, and/or is prepackaged with the OS (as compared to Windows... "Your software X won't run after your OS upgrade? Give us money and will give you the new version!")

If there are issues, its probably not the age, but the existence of different Linux Windowing systems (Gnome vs KDE) and/or package managers (RPMs vs DEBs). But, your average (non-technical) user wouldn't be bothering with those anyways (just as they probably wouldn't be bothering with dealing with MSIs and ISOs on Windows), and your technical user/support person would be smart enough to pick the right options.
Click to expand...

Most people who use Linux are usually IT people or some tinkerers. Linux has worse hardware and software support and the vast majority of users don't care if a software/hardware vendor doesn't support Linux. Even on nerdy sites like w3schools Linux percentage is around 4.3%. Telling that Linux worked on your God chosen hardware is unfair at best, considering Windows runs normally on almost all PCs and Laptops.

And yes, Linux is more unpolished compared to Windows, you often struggle to get things work. I've seen countless of bugs in Linux distributions. It isn't just difference. Just look at the reviews on dedoimedo.com and his opinion about desktop Linux.

You can cherry pick instances when old Linux programs worked and old Windows programs didn't but this won't change the reality that Windows has much better backward compatibility compared to Linux. Backward compatibility in this context means that it can run old applications, not running on very old hardware. Win7 will probably fail to run on XP era hardware but most XP era software will run on Win7. Here is an example of Win 3.1 GUI program working on Win10.

Even Linus Torvalds confirms that the compatibility is a big problem in Linux https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5PmHRSeA2c8&t=287s .

Linus Torvalds said:
"making binaries for Linux desktop applications is a major PITA. You don’t make binaries for Linux, you make binaries for Fedora 19, Fedora 20, maybe even RHEL5 from 10 years ago. You make binaries for Debian Stable…well actually no, you don't make binaries for Debian Stable because Debian Stable has libraries that are so old that anything built in the last century doesn’t work."
Click to expand...
 
suren said:
Most people who use Linux are usually IT people or some tinkerers.
Click to expand...
Yes, Linux has a very small user base. I don't think anyone is denying that. (Well, depending on how you classify things like Android devises and Chromebooks, both of which are based on a Linux core that's been modified, which sort of makes them Linux but not quite.)

But that doesn't necessarily mean its a BAD operating system, or that a person couldn't switch to Linux and be just as productive. We have seen good products fail in the past for reasons that have nothing to do with their quality.

The reasons Linux doesn't have a bigger market share is probably a combination of familiarity (Windows got there first, so people stick with what they know), manufacturers providing Windows by default (Well, because they've always done it that way), and a feedback loop... few linux users mean less software, which means fewer linux users.

Linux has worse hardware and software support
Click to expand...
Simply repeating something over and over again doesn't make it true.

Telling that Linux worked on your God chosen hardware is unfair at best, considering Windows runs normally on almost all PCs and Laptops.
Click to expand...
Ummm... "God chosen hardware"? Earlier on I pointed out that I had installed Linux on 6 different computers, 7 if you count VM installations (covering 3 different manufacturers, ages ranging from a couple of years old to over a decade, and both desktop and laptops) with absolutely no installation or usage issues. If that's "god chosen hardware", then god ain't too picky.
And yes, Linux is more unpolished compared to Windows
Click to expand...
Again, simply claiming something is true doesn't make it so.
you often struggle to get things work.
Click to expand...
Yes, and people sometimes struggle to get things to work in Windows too. And even when they do know how to do something, sometimes that isn't because "windows is easier/more polished", its because they've had to do it before and just know how to do it.
I've seen countless of bugs in Linux distributions.
Click to expand...
Yes, I'm sure you have. And I've seen countless bugs with Windows too.

For example, from: Forbes
According to research from Beyond Trust, the total number of vulnerabilities relating to Microsoft products had risen by 48% comparted to 2019...In 2020, Microsoft products took seven of the top ten places by product vulnerability. Windows 10 was top of the tree with 802 vulnerabilities...
It isn't just difference. Just look at the reviews on dedoimedo.com and his opinion about desktop Linux.
Click to expand...
Ironic that you would point to that web site. If you trust their reviews, then I suggest you look at their Win11 Review:
...the interface feels a little toyish. The icons don't feel professional enough....Settings is now more like ... wait for it ... Control Panel. However, the inconsistency will probably continue for another decade or three...the system menu is weird and annoying. Oversized and useless. It also has a "Recommended" section, which at the moment, cannot be disabled.... In the VM, I had the following. (picture of their menu.) A typical mix of nothing valuable. And of course, there's no logic to it, whatsoever....At the moment, you can move the menu to the left corner, and hopefully this will still be possible in the future, too. But you cannot put the taskbar elsewhere, as you could in the past. So, the ergonomics takes a hit...The new right-click is also annoying. Too big ... and it introduces a second mouse-click, whereby certain options are hidden in the first level, and you need another action to show everything....Windows 11 comes with a new model for managing default applications. Seems to be per-protocol. I am not sure why this method, because it's more complex and exhausting

Now granted, that is a review of a product that hasn't yet been released. So maybe Microsoft might fix things. But then again, they might not.

You can cherry pick instances when old Linux programs worked and old Windows programs didn't but this won't change the reality that Windows has much better backward compatibility compared to Linux. Backward compatibility in this context means that it can run old applications, not running on very old hardware. Win7 will probably fail to run on XP era hardware but most XP era software will run on Win7. Here is an example of Win 3.1 GUI program working on Win10.
Click to expand...
So you suggested my issues is that I "cherry picked" an example, and the way you proved me wrong is to.... cherry pick an example.
 
@Segnosaur, sure, both Windows 10 and 11 are garbage

http://itvision.altervista.org/why-windows-10-sucks.html
http://itvision.altervista.org/why-windows-11-sucks.html

But even then most people will rather use them than deal with Linux problems.
The sad reality is that neither Windows ME, neither Vista, neither Win 8/8.1, nor Win 10 did help Linux to make a dent in the the desktop marketshare. Neither will Win 11. I guess a week after release every Microsoft garbage OS gained more users than Linux did in 20 years...

Even Google is in a process of replacing Linux kernel for his operating systems showing that the kernel is irrelevant.
 
Last edited:
This is not the thread for detailed discussions of whether Linux or Windows are best. Please take that to an appropriate thread. This thread is about Windows 11.

Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: zooterkin
 
Darat said:
Windows 11 is proving to be a nice refresh of Windows. The interface re-work has been done well, some of the changes I questioned - such as the icons on the taskbar being centred - I must eat humble pie - found it works well. And the new Start menu is excellent it gets rid of all the crap they've been overburdening it with since Windows 7. It is focused and gives quick access to pretty much everything I need.

The sidebar and widgets have been as I thought - never once even thought about them after looking at it for a couple of times - still think that is only useful for Windows on a touch device.

Despite it being Beta I've not had a single crash so far!

So overall I like it, but it really isn't a new version release more like a Windows 10.3 release.
Click to expand...


I agree. I'm on the Developer Program, and I've been running it since late-July.

Windows often gets an unfairly bad rap (IMO) - mostly coming from (it would appear) either a) specialised super-users who require/desire the sorts of features that other OSs such as Linux provide, but which Windows does not; b) people who are almost evangelically wedded to other OSs (notably iOS); or c) people who still have legacy beliefs linked to things like Windows 3.1.

But Windows isn't really being designed and rolled out to meet the needs or expectations of people like those above. Its evolution is all about 1) making it more intuitive and user-friendly for low-computer-literacy users through to people just below true expert levels; 2) thereby encouraging these users to stay with Windows as it evolves; and 3) to try to entice other OS users - especially iOS notebook users - to "cross over to the dark side" and try Windows.


I also agree that 11 looks and feels more like a "10.x" iteration than a radical leap away from 10. But the MS marketing people know that in calendar terms, it's probably time for the move to a new top-level number; and they also know that people respond far differently to a new top-level number than to a mere iteration of an existing number (even if the actual product changes are exactly the same in both instances). Hence 11. Mine has also been super-stable - I'm running it on two notebooks and a desktop, with plenty of intensive applications on the desktop and one of the notebooks. I don't really know what's not to like about 11.

(PS: for the avoidance of any doubt, I'm not an employee of Microsoft, and nor do I receive anything from them for being a first-stage development user :D)
 
I finally got my notice that Windows 11 is ready to install. I am perfectly satisfied with the way I have my laptop set up now as Windows 10, and can see no additional feature or advantage to upgrading. In fact, changing the Taskbar by centering the Start button et. al. is something that would irritate me.
 
alfaniner said:
I finally got my notice that Windows 11 is ready to install. I am perfectly satisfied with the way I have my laptop set up now as Windows 10, and can see no additional feature or advantage to upgrading. In fact, changing the Taskbar by centering the Start button et. al. is something that would irritate me.
Click to expand...

You can move to the left, but there's no official way to put it at the top, and the bar is much fatter than I like.
 
eerok said:
You can move to the left, but there's no official way to put it at the top, and the bar is much fatter than I like.
Click to expand...

I didn't like it when Firefox recently double-spaced all the menus either, with no way to set it back to a compact mode (without much internal fiddling).
 
alfaniner said:
I finally got my notice that Windows 11 is ready to install. I am perfectly satisfied with the way I have my laptop set up now as Windows 10, and can see no additional feature or advantage to upgrading. In fact, changing the Taskbar by centering the Start button et. al. is something that would irritate me.
Click to expand...
:confused:

Did you miss the “new” badge?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Back
Top Bottom