Will the Humanities Save Us?

[Tokenconservative]

I'm 28 next month, thanks for asking.

In any case, I don't believe anyone is suggesting that a degree, in anything, is a passport to a job. Of course it isn't. But the facts remain that a) graduates of all disciplines are more employable and earn more than non-graduates and that b) that's generally irrelevant, given that the point of a degree is not to get you a job at the end of it. How many chemical engineering graduates do you think end up not working as chemical engineers? How many law graduates end up working in fields other than law? I have a friend with a first in Geology from Cambridge who is working as a medical journalist. Was her degree a waste of time and / or money?

Your whole argument is predicated on two misunderstandings. The first is the obvious one that, as has been shown, there is a demand for humanities graduates in the marketplace, and that companies (in the US and the UK) are actively and explicitly seeking out those with humanities degrees. The second is that (virtually) no-one goes into a history or art degree with the pretense of coming out and walking into a job as a Historian (with a capital H) or Artist (with a capital A) (or even Engineer, Mathematician or Physicist). This does not matter, because the point of a degree is to get a degree, and not to learn a narrow set of vocational skills. In fact, were this the case it would actually be harder for graduates (of any discipline) to find work, because their would be lots of people trained to very high proficiency in a very, very narrow field of knowledge. A degree is not wasted, or pointless, or irrelevant just because someone who has studied it does not get a job in the exact, narrow field that shares its name with the one on their diploma.

How many physics students do you suppose end up as working physicists? Were we to follow the model you propose for humanities in this instance, there would be no state funding for physics.

We cannot, practically or pedagogically, have a specific, vocational degree course for every conceivable career. Thus your argument, such that it is, is absurd from its very outset.

College graduates earn considerably more, on average, than non-graduates. Of course some courses have higher returns (on average) than others, but that's just an obvious truism.

The percentage of graduates, of any stripe, working tables is slim and / or temporary. I know plenty of people who worked in menial jobs or as temps for a year or so after graduating (often, might I add, out of choice rather than need) before landing excellent, high-salaried positions.

Your bald assertions have no basis in reality (as usual).

1. If you are 28, your thinking is calcified somewhere in the 80s, at most.

2. No, that's exactly what you and others ARE "suggesting." In fact, you are making that point as a matter of "fact." And while it WAS true up until even as late as the late 80s that "any" degree was better than none and it got you hired just about anywhere, it's not been the case for some time now (in the US, anyway).

3. It's true that graduates of say, an Art program are more employable than dropouts from that program. Are they more employable than graduates (sigh...same level) computer sci or engineering graduates? How about more employable than people graduating from plumbing, electrical or HVAC trade schools (sigh...yes, all other market considerations being equal)? I have an English degree. My plumber lives in a house worth, oh...maybe 2x what mine is. I know the guy personally and he's not upside down in it or any such...very responsible guy who thinks things through. Actually, he hates the place because the neighbors are prissy asswipes, but his wife, a stay-at-home mome who is homeschooling their kdis, wanted a "new" house...

4. Of course your friend's degree was not a waste of money. If her writing job goes away, there will be dozens of jobs writing for geology companies that will come banging on her door. Do you have any friends who have Art or History degrees who are site managers for oil exploration companies?

5. Once again, you mus--MUST--beg the question in order to arrive at your convoluted and false conclusions about what I am saying and what reality shows us. Of course most physicists don't end up working as such. But they don't end up being waiters, either.

Tokie

 

[volatile]

2. No, that's exactly what you and others ARE "suggesting." In fact, you are making that point as a matter of "fact." And while it WAS true up until even as late as the late 80s that "any" degree was better than none and it got you hired just about anywhere, it's not been the case for some time now (in the US, anyway).

It is still the case that people with degrees (in any subject) earn more than those without.

3. It's true that graduates of say, an Art program are more employable than dropouts from that program. Are they more employable than graduates (sigh...same level) computer sci or engineering graduates? How about more employable than people graduating from plumbing, electrical or HVAC trade schools (sigh...yes, all other market considerations being equal)? I have an English degree. My plumber lives in a house worth, oh...maybe 2x what mine is. I know the guy personally and he's not upside down in it or any such...very responsible guy who thinks things through. Actually, he hates the place because the neighbors are prissy asswipes, but his wife, a stay-at-home mome who is homeschooling their kdis, wanted a "new" house...

Jealous, much? Your whole argument seems to stem from the fact that you feel hard done by in life. As I said, maybe you should start looking closer to home rather than blaming "society".

Arts grads do not, on average, earn as much as compsci grads, this much is true. And yes, we need more plumbers. But that is quite a different thing from asserting that all arts grads are wait-staff, or that there are no jobs for arts grads. This is manifestly not the case.

Of course your friend's degree was not a waste of money. If her writing job goes away, there will be dozens of jobs writing for geology companies that will come banging on her door. Do you have any friends who have Art or History degrees who are site managers for oil exploration companies?

Do you think my friend could get a job running an oil company?

Once again, you mus--MUST--beg the question in order to arrive at your convoluted and false conclusions about what I am saying and what reality shows us. Of course most physicists don't end up working as such. But they don't end up being waiters, either.

Some do, some don't. Just like arts grads. And you're still presuming the value of an education is only in its economic return.

 

[zeusbheld]

I seem to have gathered a covey of academicians, so I'll have to lower my expected comprehension level to what, 8th grade or so?

It's amazing how obtuse you people can be. There are no state schools here specializing only in art. If there are in your state, then you must live in a very rich or very stupid (maybe both) state.

to my knowledge, "specialize" doesn't necessarily imply that's all they do. East Carolina University "specializes" in various types of art, but that isn't all they do.

Not sure why you are being this obtuse...maybe you don't understand how it works. Where I live you need, regardless of anything else, an Ed. cert to be certified as a teacher, and yes, I am talking about k-12 teaching, not the kind you and JC seem to assume is the only kind of teaching.

not sure why you are being this obtuse. last i checked, k-12 teaching isn't the only kind of teaching there is, either.

By the way...how many full profs. do you know with ONLY an MA/MS?

anyone teaching art (as in art-making) or film (as in film-making) will have an MFA. there is NO SUCH THING as a Ph.D.FA.

First of all, yeah...MOST of what I see coming out of the "film" (do you mean movies?) and virtually everything coming from the journalism industry does indeed look as if it might've crawled out from under a rock.

whereas *your* prose glitters and dazzles. i'm not at all surprised you couldn't find a job anywhere on Earth with *your* English degree.

You know that Paris Hilton is a big star, right? Have you ever watched anything on Lifetime or the Sci Fi. Ch?

Right?

and?

right then. so it's all terrible. 3:10 to Yuma terrible. The Departed? terrible. Boston Legal?? Terrible. therefore, *everything* that comes out of hollywood, and *everything* on TV is garbage because.. um. Paris Hilton exists. interesting argument.

Anyway...do you have any idea how many people with "film" degrees are waiting tables--and will be forever--in LA and NY?

strangely, none of my classmates are waiting tables. so i guess you'll have to provide me with a number. got one? oh no you don't that's right you don't do LIIIINNNNKs.

 

[zeusbheld]

I can guarantee you there are plenty of science graduates waiting tables too. This is not a sleight on the value of BScs. In fact, I know a guy with a PhD in soil physics who's currently working in a shoe store for minimum wage. Should we cut all state funding for physics degrees?

as long as we're picking nits to maintain the high standard of discourse in this forum;

the word you're looking for is "slight," as in snub or affront.

"sleight" means skill or dexterity, as in "sleight of hand."

or is usage less important than capitalization? maybe so, but usage certainly affects meaning more.

 

[zeusbheld]

I see a few such jobs, very, very occasionally. Of course, if you know ANYthing about that industry, you know that most of those jobs are posted only because they have to in order to look like they are not doing what that industry does when it comes to such jobs.

If you are the niece (nephews, generally, unless Gay, need not apply) of an ed. already working in the industry, you have a job. Otherwise, look into the exciting opportunities in food service.

and this is according to... what? do you work in "that industry"? just asking, because i do.

yet strangely, i work in the film industry, and have written travel articles (journalism 'lite'). even more strangely, my father is a retired executive at a company that manufactures optical cable, and my uncle is a machinist. keep the sweeping generalizations coming.

What do you mean when you say "writer"? Fiction? Non-fiction?

Fiction: anyone who can write can do this, they don't need a degree in Willie S. to do it.

and anyone can run a business, you don't need a degree for that. in fact, only a very small percentage of successful entrepreneurs i've met have business degrees. i guess business should be defunded too.

Non-Fiction: anyone with a degree in Art, writing about say, forensic medicine, has an icicle's chance of succeeding.

i have a degree in art and have gotten work writing about evolution.

All this aside, you essentially prove my point. Sure, there have also been one or two people who never played high school or college football who went to the open try outs for a pro football team and made the cut.

So, we should encourage anyone aspiring to play football at the pro level (about the same chances as becoming a professional novelist, these days) to skip those unnecessary steps?

not sure where you're going with this one. seems to me *your* program is suggesting that the novelist doesn't need any training. seems like *your* analogy proves *my* point. whatever, at best it's a non sequitir in relation to your point.

 

[zeusbheld]

Just because you follow every example you provide with, "yeah, I know that's anecdotal, but..." does not excuse its anecdotal nature. Apparently you learnt to read and write, but not to think.

you have made claims, failed to support them in any way, equivocate all over the map, and then accuse *me* of not being able to think? seems to me, the fool who knows he is a fool is wiser than.... you.

Yes, federally-backed loans, grants and stuff are available for people going to private colleges....who said they weren't?

You really need to learn to read more closely...my issue is with my taxes going to subsidize state colleges and unis where they churn out thousands of these useless BAs and BSs ever year. Why should I be tapped to pay someone to party for 4 or 5 years and then get the exact same job they could've gotten right out of high school, waiting tables or selling cell accessories from a kiosk in the mall?

you're aware that the interest on some federal loans is SUBSIDIZED by your tax dollars? yet you have no problem with it?

and you reek of hypocrisy, sir: what are your many claims about "waiting tables and selling cell phone accessories" if not anecdotal?

 

[zeusbheld]

Most colleges and universities in the United States are non-profits. They aren't taxed like other institutions of similar size or asset base. That's another example of subsidization by the state (federal and state level).

If you're going to be consistent, you'll need to go all the way to the bottom, rooting out any entanglement of education and the state.

EXACTLY. but the only consistency "Tokie" seems concerned with is making sure his cute little sig is at the bottom of every post.

 

[Stone Island]

Should the U.S. Government only subsidize educational pursuits that are shown to directly relate to certain vocations?

How is the government to decide that a vocation is economically viable? What if they get it wrong, and refuse to subsidize certain fields of study that later prove themselves to be valuable? Shouldn't the government respect the individual decisions of its citizens and allow them to pursue their own ends and interests in a free market of educational opportunity?

 

[Tokenconservative]

It is still the case that people with degrees (in any subject) earn more than those without.

Jealous, much? Your whole argument seems to stem from the fact that you feel hard done by in life. As I said, maybe you should start looking closer to home rather than blaming "society".

Arts grads do not, on average, earn as much as compsci grads, this much is true. And yes, we need more plumbers. But that is quite a different thing from asserting that all arts grads are wait-staff, or that there are no jobs for arts grads. This is manifestly not the case.



Do you think my friend could get a job running an oil company?



Some do, some don't. Just like arts grads. And you're still presuming the value of an education is only in its economic return.

1. This is still the case of you begging the question--do you know what that means?

2. As the old saying goes, I've been rich and I've been poor and rich is better. You'd probably call me "rich." So "done in?" Not really, but I do wish I'd either had the smarts or had had a bit more direction available to ME when choosing my educational (college) path, to be sure.

3. Beg the question much? Oh..wait, # 1 answers that, huh?

4. Don't know, but I sense a clever trap!

5. You do know that anecdotes care a bit more weight than begging the question, but not much, right?

6. I'm not "presuming," I am applying the only rational metric possible. Again, you can play that old saw, "an education is it's own reward!" all you want, but I still don't want to indulge an Art History major by subsidizing his education when that money should go to subsidize people who want to study things the market is demanding.

Tokie

 

[Tokenconservative]

you have made claims, failed to support them in any way, equivocate all over the map, and then accuse *me* of not being able to think? seems to me, the fool who knows he is a fool is wiser than.... you.

you're aware that the interest on some federal loans is SUBSIDIZED by your tax dollars? yet you have no problem with it?

and you reek of hypocrisy, sir: what are your many claims about "waiting tables and selling cell phone accessories" if not anecdotal?

It's been a long, long time since I recognized how ignorant and foolish I am...I guess you thought you were gonna slam me with that or sumptin...not sure why it is that folks arguing with me always assume I think I am some sort of Einstein or Kant or something.

Quite the opposite, I assure you. Thanks for the compliment, but I assure you as well, I am only slightly educated and not a very good thinker and pretty damned ignorant, too.


I am very aware that interest for some federal loans is subsidized... the clue might be in the phrase "federally subsidized student loans...." And therefore, what?

I am not the one claiming some sort of rational and educational superiority...you are. I am calling things as I sees 'em, that's all. You are the one claiming that a Art History BA is as marketable as a computer science BS.

I may not have any links--LIIIINNKKKKSSSSSS!!!--to offer, but I do offer up common sense. Something you, apparently yourself an academician, sorely (big surprise) lack.

Tokie

 

[Tokenconservative]

Should the U.S. Government only subsidize educational pursuits that are shown to directly relate to certain vocations?

How is the government to decide that a vocation is economically viable? What if they get it wrong, and refuse to subsidize certain fields of study that later prove themselves to be valuable? Shouldn't the government respect the individual decisions of its citizens and allow them to pursue their own ends and interests in a free market of educational opportunity?

First, I didn't say the US government, but that's a thought.

Second...they've gotten it wrong in most of the liberal arts for oh, 10-20 years now...so if they get it wrong some more, not sure what difference it makes.

Yes, they should permit citizens to pursue anything they like that legal. I just shouldn't have to subsidize some nitwit's Art History major.

Tokie

 

[zeusbheld]

It's been a long, long time since I recognized how ignorant and foolish I am...I guess you thought you were gonna slam me with that or sumptin...not sure why it is that folks arguing with me always assume I think I am some sort of Einstein or Kant or something.

because of your apparent smugness and the certitude with with you claim to have answers, in spite of offering nothing to back it up.

Quite the opposite, I assure you. Thanks for the compliment, but I assure you as well, I am only slightly educated and not a very good thinker and pretty damned ignorant, too.

well then thanks for the moment of refreshing honestly. welcome aboard.

I am very aware that interest for some federal loans is subsidized... the clue might be in the phrase "federally subsidized student loans...." And therefore, what?

therefore *your* tax dollars subsidized *my* film school adventure at a private university.

I am not the one claiming some sort of rational and educational superiority...you are. I am calling things as I sees 'em, that's all. You are the one claiming that a Art History BA is as marketable as a computer science BS.

a) i have limited my claims to art (not art history) and film, as that's what i know.
b) i have never claimed that they are AS marketable, just that they are marketable enough for the holder thereof to find a job in their chosen field. if a college grad can't find a job maybe it has more to do with them than the field? just a thought.

I may not have any links--LIIIINNKKKKSSSSSS!!!--to offer, but I do offer up common sense.

in other words, you excuse yourself from having to back up ANY of your claims or having to be in any way consistent by appeal to "common sense." what your'e really offering up is hypocrisy and BS.

Something you, apparently yourself an academician, sorely (big surprise) lack.

among the many things you lack is reading skills. i don't work in academia, i've already said that.

and if inconsistency, rigidity, and stubborn refusal to back up your claims are what constitute "common sense" i'm proud to be bereft of it thanks.

 

[Tokenconservative]

because of your apparent smugness and the certitude with with you claim to have answers, in spite of offering nothing to back it up.

well then thanks for the moment of refreshing honestly. welcome aboard.

therefore *your* tax dollars subsidized *my* film school adventure at a private university.

a) i have limited my claims to art (not art history) and film, as that's what i know.
b) i have never claimed that they are AS marketable, just that they are marketable enough for the holder thereof to find a job in their chosen field. if a college grad can't find a job maybe it has more to do with them than the field? just a thought.

in other words, you excuse yourself from having to back up ANY of your claims or having to be in any way consistent by appeal to "common sense." what your'e really offering up is hypocrisy and BS.

among the many things you lack is reading skills. i don't work in academia, i've already said that.

and if inconsistency, rigidity, and stubborn refusal to back up your claims are what constitute "common sense" i'm proud to be bereft of it thanks.

Your...interpretation of my words as evidence of my "smugness" is your own.

Refreshing honesty is my middle name.

Well, I doubt MY tax dollars subsidized anything more than your federally subsidized loans...we don't have a film school here as far as I know.

a) I use Art History as an example because it's really one of the least useful sorts of liberal arts degrees one can get. Film studies is right up there, to be sure!
b) I never said that you said that I said that you said.... Indeed, a grad has to offer something more than just being a grad (sometimes--if you'd been here in the mid-90s when computer and 'net companies were offering snotty, zit-faced high school kids with "cool" web sites $75k/year to design for them, you might see it differently...)...which is what I believe I have been saying...like being a graduate of a program that has some use in the marketplace. Like those snotty zit-faced kids had. Not many jobs for Art History majors in those software development companies, I'm afraid (now someone will come in with an anecdote about their "friend" who did just that! Yeah, I have a friend with a Psych BA who runs the computer database for a multinational medical billing company...so?)

I may be offering BS...that remains to be seen, you've certainly not proven it. You'd have to go a bit further defining my "hypocrisy." My guess: you don't know what the word means.

Tokie

 

[zeusbheld]

Refreshing honesty is my middle name.

so you accept that what makes your "honesty" refreshing is its scarcity? thanks for clearing that up.

Well, I doubt MY tax dollars subsidized anything more than your federally subsidized loans...we don't have a film school here as far as I know.

nonetheless your tax dollars did subsidize my loans, and the loans of people like me.

I may be offering BS...that remains to be seen, you've certainly not proven it.

difference being, unlike you i neither pretended to prove it nor offered it up as a foregone conclusion.

You'd have to go a bit further defining my "hypocrisy."

My guess: you don't know what the word means.

i'd define your hypocrisy as " "Tokie" professes qualities or virtues he doesn't actually possess. like his alleged common sense. "

you can look it up and see if i know what the word means; i'm too lazy.

 

[SezMe]

Psst, Tokie, I'm with you on this one but don't let on. You're right, if we start funding all these edumacasional courses of study, people will learn to think, see the world from different perspectives, will see the nuance instead of black and white, and all such dangerous, non-patriotic things. And we both know where that leads ... they turn into pinko commie liburls and vote - ugh, do I have to say it - Democratic.

You're right. Give the ignorant masses glorified vocational training but no more. The working stiffs can be hoodwinked by our clever propaganda machine and those who rise to the top will stay with us as long as we keep those tax loopholes intact.

So by god hang in there Tokie and keep up the good fight because the future of our country, nay, of the world, depends on it. But keep the agenda a secret, OK?

 

[Tokenconservative]

Psst, Tokie, I'm with you on this one but don't let on. You're right, if we start funding all these edumacasional courses of study, people will learn to think, see the world from different perspectives, will see the nuance instead of black and white, and all such dangerous, non-patriotic things. And we both know where that leads ... they turn into pinko commie liburls and vote - ugh, do I have to say it - Democratic.

You're right. Give the ignorant masses glorified vocational training but no more. The working stiffs can be hoodwinked by our clever propaganda machine and those who rise to the top will stay with us as long as we keep those tax loopholes intact.

So by god hang in there Tokie and keep up the good fight because the future of our country, nay, of the world, depends on it. But keep the agenda a secret, OK?

And...there it is.

It took a while for someone to do this, but hey, you takes what you gets.

Tokie

 

[biostudent]

For a science student, I presume, you have a remarkably...limited grasp of how assertions of the sort you are making here are to be made...

How would this possibly devalue a science degree?

Where do you get the idea that I am opposed to teaching more to kids in high school? That's a big part of the problem in higher ed. Not that they don't like it, by the way...all those kids coming to them every year, year after year in need of remedial courses in...well, everything, means $$!

Tokie

I think you missed my point. Anyway, whatever.

 

[NobbyNobbs]

I know several patent attorneys, all of them have degrees in some sort of engineering...um, of course, you apparently don't understand that you can't (normally, today, in the USA) get a law degree without getting a BA/BS in SOMETHING else, first, but I love your begging of the question here to make that ol' dumby Tokie look even dumber!

Tokie

Interesting....you berate him for not knowing that patent attorneys don't get a law degree first, but earlier in the thread you seemed not to know it yourself:

As to the other bit of pedantry...okay, so a patent attorney (very small area of specilization) gets what, first? An English degree? Philosophy?

When you say things like this, do you actually think about them first, or is it that your knee is jerking so violently up into your keyboard that your fingers just dance across the keys mindless of what it is you actually mean to say?

Tokie

And in any case, you're still presuming that the only value of a degree is employability. This is very, very simplistic, especially coming from someone who, as an English teacher, should value cultural literacy.

Seconded. When I applied for my current job, a technical degree was required, but it was my experience in the humanities that convinced the interviewer that I was worthy of being hired. This is not a guess; this is what he told me himself in the post-interview.

1. If you are 28, your thinking is calcified somewhere in the 80s, at most.

So, when did yours calcify?

Do you have any friends who have Art or History degrees who are site managers for oil exploration companies?

a) I use Art History as an example because it's really one of the least useful sorts of liberal arts degrees one can get. Film studies is right up there, to be sure!

My wife majored in art history. As a direct result, she landed a job as a graphic artist for a major metropolis newspaper. She has also been hired to do consultant work for a major drug company, concerning the layout of their brochures for a new drug, and she has been hired to design company logos and business cards.

Why is the ability to be a site manager for an oil exploration company the pinnacle of success for an art history major?

I may be offering BS

For sure.

 

[ZenFountain]

Nope. That isn't even correct. If you want to become a patent attorney you do not get your law degree first.

That curious, because my brother and his wife are both IP lawyers in Chicago and both got their JD's beforehand, in fact they had to stick it out in non-IP work for a few years before finding IP work. Of course, referances to friends and family are anecdotal but I would endeavour to say that in all law fields there is no standard career paths.

Continuing on the law school theme, courses in logic and the humanities as a whole for the sole purpose of analyzing abstract ideas and improving writing abilities will help a great deal as an L1. The thought of eviscerating the humanities from the curriculum simply because they are not of intrinsic job getting value is ridiculous and flies in the face of the original purpose of university education. If it's going to go that far, perhaps universities should be clearly divided into traditional schools and four year vocational schools.

 

[Stone Island]

Here are the organized sections within the American Political Science Association.

Tokie has already said that Political Science is an approved discipline, i.e., a discipline that has a vocational component that it is justified for the government to subsidize. Which of these subgroups, Tokie, ought the government to subsidize and which ought they not subsidize? Which are useful for getting a job and which are not. On what grounds? They're all Political Science broadly understood, they're are all subjects that can be focused on at the undergraduate level, but if you have a government technocrat deciding which studies are approved and which are not, how fine is your cut going to be?

1. Federalism and Intergovernmental Relations
2. Law and Courts
3. Legislative Studies
4. Public Policy
5. Political Organizations and Parties
6. Public Administration
7. Conflict Processes
8. Representation and Electoral Systems
9. Presidency Research
10. Political Methodology
11. Religion and Politics
13. Urban Politics
15. Science, Technology and Environmental Politics
16. Women and Politics Research
17. Foundations of Political Theory
18. Information Technology and Politics
19. International Security and Arms Control
20. Comparative Politics
21. European Politics and Society
22. State Politics and Policy
23. Political Communication
24. Politics and History
25. Political Economy
27. New Political Science
28. Political Psychology
29. Political Science Education
30. Politics, Literature, and Film
31. Foreign Policy
32. Elections, Public Opinion, and Voting Behavior
33. Race, Ethnicity and Politics
34. International History and Politics
35. Comparative Democratization
36. Human Rights
37. Qualitative and Multi-method Research
38. Sexuality and Politics