This has to be one of the most bizarre threads I've ever read. It seems like Tokie's real complaint is the devaluation of arts degrees, yet his solution would lead to the same problem with science degrees.
I think that the devaluation of degrees is a real problem, personally, but I would like to see a different solution: shove more material into high school so that high school diplomas are worth something again. That, and stop telling kids that they must all go to college/university in order to get anywhere in life. You don't need a degree to work in a factory, for instance. (unless you want to be a plant engineer or something like that) (edit... oh I must add, in case someone gets the wrong idea: I'm very much PRO education!!! I do worry about the devaluation problem, though.)
i like your solution better than his. seems to me the reason bachelors' degrees (INCLUDING business and science degrees) are next to useless as a credential has more to do with the fact that back in the day, they were scarce, but now EVERYONE has a degree.
i too would like to see people actually receive an education in high school, i'm not terribly impressed with the curriculum. i definitely agree that you don't need a degree for most jobs. not just factory worker, but programmer, for example. i know many self-taught programmers making a lot of money. i know many with cal tech and standford comp sci degrees. most of them in BOTH categories say that the main purpose of the degree is to convince a manager who hasn't the faintest clue in the world about writing good code to hire you to write code. anecdotal evidence, i know, but why not defund comp sci as well?
hiring based on degree is sorta like hiring graphic designers based on their having passed the typing test (true story, happened to me, fortunately i passed).
the purpose of education should not be to obtain a scrap of paper, but to learn. if you learn how to either a) do stuff or b) think and express yourself, you will get a job. if you can't, maybe you need to move to where the jobs are. (good luck sitting around in Wyoming looking for a job as a movie producer).
i understand the "tokie" plan a little better now that i've caught up on reading this thread---if you study, say, art, then you must sign an agreement to go straightaway into grad school in order to get loans or een be able to major in art, as an undergrad at a state school (like where i studied art, UNC-Chapel Hill). if this is wrong, correct me, but that's my understanding.
had i done so i a) wouldn't have gotten a job in my field right out of school because i'd still have been in school. i wouldn't have been able to work for 15 years in my chosen field(s) before grad school, as i would have had to commit to a state grad school in order to major in art. a state school would have been all i could afford had i gone straight to grad school without that 15 years of work. in real life, thanks to that 15 years of 'real world' experience, i went to grad school at an ivy league school.
anecdotal, sure. doesn't prove anything. basically, if "Tokie" were in charge, i most likely would have found a way to get where i wanted to be, but it would have been more difficult. arguably i might be better off without any degrees and certainly could still be doing the work i want to do. that said, i learned how to paint and how to think about and tell stories at UNC, and found my 'art' degree with a lot of comp lit and short story writing courses quite useful.
and "Tokie"--are school loans really the problem? do elaborate, as government loans are available at private universities also.
