Will Democracy Survive Until 2100?

[manofthesea]

Hi everybody. I've been dwelling upon this thought now for some time and it won't go away. I'm not being provocative, just curious.

Democracy started around the 1770s right? France, the United States. We've come a long way in the past 200 years or so. Electricity, transportation systems, communications, space flight...

Am I naive to think that it is possible that the United States could somehow eventually succumb to a national or religious power? By whatever means. I'm sure the UK and Western Europe would immediately succumb also. Socio political and civil unrest could soon become serious problems here in the US. The rise of the Tea Party with its incendiary messages. Even the most "peace loving, good guy to ever grace the earth", that Rauf guy, just yesterday defended the adherance to Sharia Law. That's the same law that the Taliban enforces. It's coming to a neighborhood near you.

Could we be headed to the Really Dark Ages? Begin my enlightenment now. Thanks.

 

[Virus]

Nobody knows what's going to happen 100 years from now but I wouldn't worry about it. Western civilization gets better, not worse.

 

[dudalb]

Hi everybody. I've been dwelling upon this thought now for some time and it won't go away. I'm not being provocative, just curious.

Democracy started around the 1770s right? France, the United States. We've come a long way in the past 200 years or so. Electricity, transportation systems, communications, space flight...

Am I naive to think that it is possible that the United States could somehow eventually succumb to a national or religious power? By whatever means. I'm sure the UK and Western Europe would immediately succumb also. Socio political and civil unrest could soon become serious problems here in the US. The rise of the Tea Party with its incendiary messages. Even the most "peace loving, good guy to ever grace the earth", that Rauf guy, just yesterday defended the adherance to Sharia Law. That's the same law that the Taliban enforces. It's coming to a neighborhood near you.

Could we be headed to the Really Dark Ages? Begin my enlightenment now. Thanks.

A little paranoid, me thinks.

 

[MG1962]

The ability of a democracy to survive a crisis is in direct proportion to the maturity of that democracy and the strength of the institutions behind it.

In the United States for example, you have the Supreme Court, who's very structure stops it ever being guided by popular needs.

The US, Great Britian and other Westminster system governments have multiple ways to defend themselves if they should get saddled with a Hitler or Stalin attempting to take power, even if such despots begin using legetimate means such as electrol success to do so

 

[PhantomWolf]

Democracy started around the 1770s right?

Um.. no. Athens had it back in 508 BC and other states had it prior to that.

They weren't quite the same as what we term Democracy, but then even that has evolved a lot in the last 100 years, for instance NZ was the first country to achieve full suffrage by giving women the vote in just 1893, with Australia (1901) and Finland (1906) being the next two. Even though the US gave women the right to vote in 1920, and supposedly gave blacks the right in 1870, it wasn't until 1965 that the US really had universal suffrage. France had two short lived periods of male suffrage, but didn't gain permanent male suffrage until 1914, and universal suffrage when women were given the right to vote in 1944.

So in saying that, we either have to consider NZ's democracy the first real one, or note that it has been around for well over two and a half thousand years.

 

[ravdin]

Something that's crossed my mind a few times is that that the biggest existential challenges the USA has faced have been spaced about 80 years apart.

1770s-1780s: War of independence from Britain, creation of the Constitution.
1850s-1860s: The question of slavery comes to a head, culminating in the Civil War.
1930s-1940s: The Great Depression and WWII.
2010s-2020s: ???

 

[PhantomWolf]

Something that's crossed my mind a few times is that that the biggest existential challenges the USA has faced have been spaced about 80 years apart.

1770s-1780s: War of independence from Britain, creation of the Constitution.
1850s-1860s: The question of slavery comes to a head, culminating in the Civil War.
1930s-1940s: The Great Depression and WWII.
2010s-2020s: ???

Funny thing, I'd have though that the 1960's and 70's were of bigger challenge to the US than the 1930's and 40's.

 

[This is The End]

Funny thing, I'd have though that the 1960's and 70's were of bigger challenge to the US than the 1930's and 40's.

WWI wasn't exactly a walk in the park either...

 

[MG1962]

Funny thing, I'd have though that the 1960's and 70's were of bigger challenge to the US than the 1930's and 40's.

Not really - the generation that went through the depression and subsquent war, are often refered to as the 'greatest generation' A tag that is hard to argue

 

[cwalner]

Not really - the generation that went through the depression and subsquent war, are often refered to as the 'greatest generation' A tag that is hard to argue

given the context of this thread, though, I would have to agree with PhantomWolf. The internal pressures of a fundamental shift in our society posed a much bigger challenge to our democracy, than the external threats posed by WWI and WWII. And while the depression resulted in legal changes that did away with lazeis faire capitalism*, these were all done through our democratic institutions (also we have seen Europe put far more socialist programs in place since then without posing a challenge or threat to their democracies)

* I grew up in the '80s and the conflation of democracy and capitalism is one of my biggest pet peeves that I still have from that era.

 

[manofthesea]

A little paranoid, me thinks.

I can go with that. I'll not worry my poor worried self any longer.

I was just considering what would happen if the Tea Party-ists gained a majority in either house any time soon. When the Sierra Club tried to rationally deal with immigration concerns, we fractured like the Christian Church. And then imploded. I could imagine (in a paranoid way) how the TP will deal with immigration. How does a wall that eats people and then spits out their bones ala 'Nothing But Trouble' with Chevy Chase sound? Their foreign policy (in my paranoid way) would resemble Capt. Kirk dealing with Klingons. And that would inevitably lead to our doom.
And then these religionists bringing fundamentalism, wow.

Thanks guys.

 

[Chucky]

No, it will be replaced by the Singularity.

Otherwise, I think with computer age tools it is more likely to expand than contract. Witness how the need to do business using the Internet is forcing tyrannical states that nevertheless have some sort of reasonably well functioning economies, such as China and Singapore, is forcing them bit by bit to have their populations exposed to ideas they might otherwise not be exposed to. The genie is out of the bottle and is more likely to require competitive markets within countries that don't have them in order for that country to compete. Which in itself can help seed democracy.

 

[Halfcentaur]

I don't think there's any reason to be anything more than hopeful for the future. We are in a time when small choices could lead to devastation, but in most ways we are better off than ever before and have been steadily improving. As Carl Sagan demonstrated, at one point all the power in the world was held by people who thought they were destined to have power over everyone else, chosen or born of a deity. These people had all the wealth and military power on the Earth, and yet for the most part, humanity has outgrown these systems and risen above them, but for a few backwater dictatorships thought of as primitive and flawed by the greater populace. The thing to remember is, these people had all the interest and ability in the world to hold on to this power, yet humanity overcame it anyways. Who has more interest in nuclear weapons and strife than the king's of old had in their sovereign power? Likewise, woman's rights and the abolishing of slavery, these systems generated wealth and power, but it was our empathy and sense of reason that saw this power abolished and made a relic of the past. We live in an age where corporations will bend the laws as much as they can to maximize profits , and governments are run more like businesses in some ways. The thing for you to do is to hone your reason and skeptical outlook. It is through skepticism and a demand for reason and evidence that we will not be left at the mercy of these issues.

Keep your "bullcrap" meter ready, and avoid falling victim to bias and fear. Celebrate the freedom that science and education and reason can give you, and enjoy your life for the time you live in.

 

[PhantomWolf]

Not really - the generation that went through the depression and subsquent war, are often refered to as the 'greatest generation' A tag that is hard to argue

While I can agree that it was a very tough time, polictially the changes with the the Civil Rights movement, Veitnam, and the whole shift from a conserative and closed stance to a liberal and permission one throughout the late 60's and early 70's changed the landscape of the US far more than did the depression and WW2.

 

[manofthesea]

This is what actually made me think that religious fundamentalism has and is changing America. http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=129917890&ft=1&f=1003

I grew up in Seattle. Right after 9/11 a group of Somalis were arrested at a Muslim 'bookstore' at the end of the block where my mom lives. Nobody worried that there was a serious threat. But to have to worry about someone who is obviously a religio bent on holy murder in what was a progressive city seems that a fundamental change has occured. This story had a short life on my ISP homepage and I had to search for it. Hardly newsworthy.

This doesn't represent an extremist action to me at all. It seems more representative of a wholly intolerant religion. Are the majority of muslims who are not accepting of extremism voicing their disgust and reassuring this woman?

When these extremists gain control and weaponry, look at what they did in Afghanistan. Starting with the giant ancient Buddha that they blew all to hell.

 

[MG1962]

While I can agree that it was a very tough time, polictially the changes with the the Civil Rights movement, Veitnam, and the whole shift from a conserative and closed stance to a liberal and permission one throughout the late 60's and early 70's changed the landscape of the US far more than did the depression and WW2.

If we limit the criteria to political events then yes I would have to agree that 60's and trailing into the 70's would have it

Mind you the first decade of the 21st cent is definately giving it a run

 

[Virus]

The rise of the Tea Party with its incendiary messages.

Why is it that thousands of hardcore communists and anarchists can march through the street but as soon as conservatives do it the country is suddenly one step away from fascism?

 

[Cavemonster]

Why is it that thousands of hardcore communists and anarchists can march through the street but as soon as conservatives do it the country is suddenly one step away from fascism?

Because the communists and anarchists in the US have never even approached having political power in this country, while the Tea Party is endorsed by several members of congress and is a major backing force for many more candidates in this election.

 

[TjW]

Something that's crossed my mind a few times is that that the biggest existential challenges the USA has faced have been spaced about 80 years apart.

1770s-1780s: War of independence from Britain, creation of the Constitution.
1850s-1860s: The question of slavery comes to a head, culminating in the Civil War.
1930s-1940s: The Great Depression and WWII.
2010s-2020s: ???

Isn't it amazing how when you graph two points, they define a line?

 

[Travis]

Why is it that thousands of hardcore communists and anarchists can march through the street but as soon as conservatives do it the country is suddenly one step away from fascism?

I'm really trying to think of any rally of Communists and Anarchists that approached the Rally to Restore Honor in size or media coverage.