Why should incest be illegal?

In the case of parent/child incest, I don't think informed consent is possible.
There is a power structure that is practically unbreakable.
Teachers and Bosses have a power relationship too, but that isn't nearly so deeply ingrained and essentially disappears when one of them is no longer part of the institution.
 
Cavemonster said:
In the case of parent/child incest, I don't think informed consent is possible.
There is a power structure that is practically unbreakable.
Teachers and Bosses have a power relationship too, but that isn't nearly so deeply ingrained and essentially disappears when one of them is no longer part of the institution.
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You don't think you could refuse an offer of sex from your parents?

Again, this is all speculation based on feelings.
 
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Ashles said:
Define 'natural'?
If, despite their full knowledge of the situation, they stil fall in love why is that not 'natural'? It's not 'artificial'. There are no external forces influencing it.

By your definition is homosexuality 'not natural'?
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Let me think this out for a minute.

Is incest natural? It's appeared in practically all human societies, since the dawn of time. It's been an unspeakable crime in just about every society and civilization, too. It's practically the only universal law, the taboo against incest.

Nearly universal, that is. There have been slight exceptions to incest- it's been accepted for religious, cultural, social or political reasons but only in the upper/ ruling classes, not for the population. Royalty in Ancient Egypt, royalty in Inca culture, the royal family of Hawaii. Ancient Greek myths are rife with descriptions of incest among gods, goddesses and other supernatural beings. Marriages to nieces and nephews were also accepted in ancient Greece.

It appears in nature, too. Horses are bred with their own offspring and grandchildren, etc. Maybe it's "natural" that the first people adults, teens and children turn to for sex are those in their own home or close community. The Eskimos traditionally practise some incest- makes sense in a community and lifestyle like that.

That it appears in nature and in human history does not make it moral or normal, though. Rape, infanticide, patricide, murder, cannibalism and bestiality have been part of humankind since the dawn of time. That doesn't mean we should accept them or tolerate them in any way. Rape is very natural and actually very understandable but it is still an unforgivable crime, whether it's men against women, men against men, women against women or women against men.

Is incest abnormal? People who do it may have something very, very wrong with them. Or maybe they are otherwise very normal. Maybe they are intelligent, sane and educated people who just happen to be having sex with their biblings, parents or children.

It's still beyond stomach-churning, though.
 
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KingMerv00 said:
You don't think you could refuse an offer of sex from your parents?

Again, this is all speculation based on feelings.
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In almost every civilization in the world, parents create the rules by which their children live for the first years of their life. They structure their most basic moral foundations.

I think it's generally immoral for a high school teacher to have a relationship with a student, that isn't ick factor, it's pretty universally recognized abuse of authority, even if the student could easily practically refuse.

It isn't that the child is incapable of saying no, it's that the person they would need to say no to has shaped their ability to process requests.
 
I'm guessing that ravdin started this whole thread because he's got a really hot sister :p

:duck:
 
Cavemonster said:
In almost every civilization in the world, parents create the rules by which their children live for the first years of their life. They structure their most basic moral foundations.

I think it's generally immoral for a high school teacher to have a relationship with a student, that isn't ick factor, it's pretty universally recognized abuse of authority, even if the student could easily practically refuse.

It isn't that the child is incapable of saying no, it's that the person they would need to say no to has shaped their ability to process requests.
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When you say "child" you are referring to a grown adult that is capable of making informed choices, right?

You didn't answer my question. Could you refuse an offer of sex from your parents?
 
KingMerv00 said:
When you say "child" you are referring to a grown adult that is capable of making informed choices, right?

You didn't answer my question. Could you refuse an offer of sex from your parents?
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Turning 16 (legal marriage age in many US states) doesn't automatically undo the authority of parents. In fact, a parent who would want to marry their child, and go against all the social taboo, likely isn't thinking of it for the first time after their child turns legal. It is all too easy to imagine a parent (who gave that child their first "sex talk" only a few years ago) molding their child toward the relationship.

About 12% of child sexual abuse (reported) is perpetrated by parents.

I think I could say no to my folks, but then again, they never asked.
 
Cavemonster said:
Turning 16 (legal marriage age in many US states) doesn't automatically undo the authority of parents. In fact, a parent who would want to marry their child, and go against all the social taboo, likely isn't thinking of it for the first time after their child turns legal. It is all too easy to imagine a parent (who gave that child their first "sex talk" only a few years ago) molding their child toward the relationship.
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You are trying to draft laws based on the most horrible scenarios you can imagine, not the scenarios you can prove.

If the 16 year old is dependent on the parent for shelter, food, and money, the legal agreement was not made at arm's length and may therefore be a violation of informed consent. This is standard contract law.

You keep bringing up the spectre of child molestation. What about a parent and child that are 50 and 30 respectively?

About 12% of child sexual abuse (reported) is perpetrated by parents.
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We are not discussing rape, you are.

I think I could say no to my folks, but then again, they never asked.
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You mean you aren't a robot? You mean you have power over your own decisions? You mean you have control over your own informed consent?
 
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Hokulele said:
Really? Other cultures have different opinions on what marriage means.
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Why should it matter to me what opinions other cultures have about marriage?
Other cultures have condoned child-sacrifice, ..that should have no bearing on my view that it's wrong.
 
KingMerv00 said:
You You are trying to draft laws based on the most horrible scenarios you can imagine, not the scenarios you can prove.
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We very often legislate for the bad scenarios, drunk driving is illegal even though many people can drive reliably over the legal limit.

There is clear evidence that some parents, in fact a very large number, have abused their authority to sexually molest their children. Almost all of these parents used their authority to warp their children's view of their right to dissent among many other things.

This abuse is discouraged by law, but if it were legal as soon as the kid hit age of consent (15 in some states) they would only have to lay low for a couple years and then... in the clear? These aren't just the extreme's of my imagination, if past abuses against the law are any indication, it is clear that there will be abuses.

So weighing the possibilities. How many 50/30 father daughter couples do you think are being oppressed by the restriction? Do you really think that outweighs the number of 15-16 year olds who can have been trained thatb they have no choice in their sexual partner.

For me, it would take quite a few 50/30's to justify a single abused teenage bride, but that's just me.

Unless you can site some examples, I'm going to think that the existence of any oppressed 30/50 couple is a product of your imagination.
 
KingMerv00 said:
You mean you aren't a robot? You mean you have power over your own decisions? You mean you have control over your own informed consent?
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I'm not a robot, because my parents didn't make me one. In many countries and religious cults, parents train their very young girls that marriage to much older men they don't know is their only choice.

It is because they have power over what kind of decision maker their kids become that the potential for abuse is unique.
 
Cavemonster said:
I'm not a robot, because my parents didn't make me one. In many countries and religious cults, parents train their very young girls that marriage to much older men they don't know is their only choice.

It is because they have power over what kind of decision maker their kids become that the potential for abuse is unique.
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Mentally abusing your children is already illegal in America.
 
Cavemonster said:
We very often legislate for the bad scenarios, drunk driving is illegal even though many people can drive reliably over the legal limit.
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Drunk driving is not a contract consent issue.

There is clear evidence that some parents, in fact a very large number, have abused their authority to sexually molest their children. Almost all of these parents used their authority to warp their children's view of their right to dissent among many other things.

This abuse is discouraged by law, but if it were legal as soon as the kid hit age of consent (15 in some states) they would only have to lay low for a couple years and then... in the clear? These aren't just the extreme's of my imagination, if past abuses against the law are any indication, it is clear that there will be abuses.
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The consent you descibe wouldn't be informed consent. There are already rules about contracts of adhesion and duress.

So weighing the possibilities. How many 50/30 father daughter couples do you think are being oppressed by the restriction? Do you really think that outweighs the number of 15-16 year olds who can have been trained thatb they have no choice in their sexual partner.

For me, it would take quite a few 50/30's to justify a single abused teenage bride, but that's just me.
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Duress and abuse laws cover this.

Unless you can site some examples, I'm going to think that the existence of any oppressed 30/50 couple is a product of your imagination.
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If they don't exist I suppose we could remove the laws on older incestuous couples then?
 
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EeneyMinnieMoe said:
The government does take certain measures where that is concerned. Asking for your and your fiance/fiancee's blood type when you get married, for instance.
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They don't do that over here. They do check that you're not currently married and that the bride and the groom are not first cousins or more closely related, but that's it. And I venture to guess that even in places where they ask for blood types, there's no legislation banning marriages between certain blood types.
 
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KingMerv00 said:
Your entire argument is based on speculation and stereotypes not evidence.
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Can you entirely eliminate it as a possibility ? I would prefer that 99 potential incestees are denied their opportunity to prevent a single case of abuse in the same way that I would deny 99 15 year olds the opportunity to have sex to proctect the 100th
KingMerv00 said:
You are wrong. Underage sex is illegal because we see that consent requires a certain age.
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We are saying that all people of age 'x' are able to provide consent and that all people of age 'x' - 1 day are unable to provide consent (here in the UK it's 16 years). You could argue that there are some individuals who are sufficiently mature that at the age of 15 years and 364 days they could provide consent whereas there are others who cannot provide consent at 16 years and 1 day. Society has decided that a particular age protects the vulnerable.

An alternative would to be abandon a minimum age of consent and to try to assess each case on its merits to try and determine whether consent has been given.
KingMerv00 said:
You are declaring abuse and brainwashing withough evidence.
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I guess I'm just reacting to the various cases which have appeared in the news over the past few months where incestual relationships have continued well into adulthood with the junior partner clearly abused but with no complaint being made
 
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