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Why scale models are ineffective

psi

you seem to be missing the point.
your washers and toothpick attempt at scaling wasn't anywhere near accurate because toothipicks and washers are NOT scaled to anywhere near the rated strength of the stee as it would be scaled down.
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There was NO ATTEMPT AT SCALING!!! I never said it was SCALED.

In fact both fo my videos ask about the steel and concrete on every level.

I compared collapses with NO WASHERS to collapses WITH WASHERS to show what effect of the falling mass having to accelerate stationary masses during the collapse.

Scaling can't be done without accurate information on the towers but then you people complain about my asking about the steel and concrete on every level.

Brilliant move guys. You people contradict the point. :D :D

psik
 
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It also looks computer generated. Computers generated realities don't have to obey the laws of physics.

What is holding the disks up?

psik

Just a neutral observation-I've been designing and building r/c aircraft for a few years now, mostly large scale stuff. I use a program to draw up the various parts and assemble the "virtual model" at which point I can test "fly" the model onscreen with all the various and relevant laws of physics and aerodynamics having an effect on the structural integrity and flight performance of the model. After having built the actual models and flight testing them in comparison to the virtual model, I've found It's quite accurate. Computer generated realities/models do have to obey the laws of physics if that is part of the program.

L.
 
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There was NO ATTEMPT AT SCALING!!!

Absolutely correct. You made no attempt to scale the model so that it accurately represented the collapses.

Instead you deliberately set it up so that it did what you wanted it to do.

I compared collapses with NO WASHERS to collapses WITH WASHERS to show what effect of the falling mass having to accelerate stationary masses during the collapse.

You wouldn't have wasted the effort if you truly understood that scale models aren't accurate.You're basically telling us that everyone elses scale models are wrong but yours.

The same way that you're telling us that it's ok for you to contradict yourself. :p
 
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It also looks computer generated. Computers generated realities don't have to obey the laws of physics.

What is holding the disks up?

psik

yeah it obeys the laws of physics and like what was said before your models have no relevance as you control the scaled connections (tape or however you held up the washers)

that makes me wonder
was that the only size washer you tried?
i think to be fair you should have had at least 5 different mass washers just to compare results

try that again
this time use 3/4" ID fender washers (pretty heavy) and tape
or go to the metal shop and have them cut some disks for you from some round stock and drill some holes

but you wont
 
And I am interested in seeing Heiwa's rebuttal.

First you must decide what you are going to model, e.g. a steel tower structure where part C one way crushes part A, when C is dropped on A by gravity; C = 1/10 A, A carried C before.

How to go about it? And does size/scale matter? Let's do it full scale!

First select a suitable building standard to get the design stresses and the redundancy right. Let's also simplify and that only static design stresses due to gravity loads are considered (in this example).

Let's start with a very simple tower 100 floors high. It has a core of 8 vertical columns (100 floors high) in a square; three columns each side; 4 corner core columns and 4 intermediate columns. At every floor the core columns are interconnected with horizontal/slooping beams for redundancy reasons. The core is like a big mast of 8 columns. It is evidently self-supporting due to the beams between the core columns.

The core is surrounded by perimeter wall columns; say 7 each side, thus total 24! At every floor the perimeter core columns are interconnected with horizontal spandrels for redundancy reasons.

All the columns are primary, load bearing elements. At present no loads (except own weights) are applied to the columns. The horizontal beams and spandrels are secondary elements installed for redundancy reasons and act as support to keep critical stresses (buckling) low in the columns (as per the standard).

Now we connect the core columns with the perimeter columns with horizontal floor trusses! 5 perimeter columns at each wall corner are connected to one core corner column (thus 5 trusses) and the intermediate core columns are connected by one truss to the remaining, intermediate perimeter columns.

Thus there are 24 floor trusses between perimeter columns and core; 4 x 5 trusses connected to the core corner columns, 4 just between remaining columns. You follow? The trusses are just bolted to the columns. The trusses are secondary elements.

This can be done in any scale, size.

Now put a thin steel plate over all floor trusses and add your loads on the floor trusses.

These loads are evidently transmitted to the columns that compress the columns. Now ensure that the static stress in each column is according to standard. Evidently the corner core columns carry more load than any other column but ... the stresses are the same. The columns get heavier lower down.

Now check the structure for redundancy! Say that the criteria according to standard is that you can remove any one column between any floor and that the spandrels and the horizontal beams shall be able to transmit the column load around the 'failure' (the removed column bit) to adjacent coumns, that will not fail. It means, e.g. that the intermediate core columns become quite strong.

OK, your structure is ready. In any size, scale. The static stresses and the redundancy are as per standard.

Now we are going to remove all columns, one after the other, between parts C and A (so we can drop C on A).

Let's say we first remove one centre, the 4th middle one, perimeter wall column in one wall. No problem - there is redundancy enough.

Then we remove the two adjacent perimeter wall columns. What happens? Well, it is a possiblity that the 4th middle perimeter wall column above (and its local loads) will drop down to ground, the spandrels above connected to the 4th middle perimeter column shear off, unless the floor trusses (and the hat truss!) above can pull it (and the load!) in position.

Regardless, it seems that part C will be severely locally stressed and possibly damaged when we start removing columns between parts C and A, thus before C is even dropped on A.

This is another reason why part C cannot one way crush down part A. C is simply less strong than A and subject to bigger local loads due to local failures between C and A. There are many others. And none of them has to with scale or modelling. It is just simple structural damage analysis that is required and it is the same for any structure.

Anyone suggesting that you can remove all columns between parts C and A and then drop C on A is a fool. C is locally damaged before that, parts of C and loads should drop off an the remaining parts of C cannot crush down A.

Read my papers to get a better feel for the problem.
 
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Now but a thin steel plate over all floor trusses and add your loads on the floor trusses.

OK, your structure is ready. In any size, scale. The static stresses and the redundancy are as per standard.

These don't add up. If you make a small model that steel plate is gonna have to be thinner than aluminium foil, how much weight is that gonna exert on the floor trusses?
 
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Anyone suggesting that you can remove all columns between parts C and A and then drop C on A is a fool. C is locally damaged before that, parts of C and loads should drop off an the remaining parts of C cannot crush down A.

isnt the heiwa challenge dropping part c squarely onto part a from any height?

i guess you just labeled yourself lol
 
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There was NO ATTEMPT AT SCALING!!! I never said it was SCALED.
psik

You are SOOOOO right. Yet here you are trying to point out that in your models (which had NO SCALING in them) that the washers failed to make it collapse.

Since you DIDNT bother with things like how scaling down, it would create massive problems, your model IS INVALID to be able to say, see... the models show it doesn't work.

don't you get that?
 
These don't add up. If you make a small model that steel plate is gonna have to be thinner than aluminium foil, how much weight is that gonna exert on the floor trusses?

Model is full scale! 1:1. Any size.

Anyone suggesting that you can remove all columns between parts C and A and then drop C on A is a fool. C is locally damaged before that, parts of C and loads should drop off an the remaining parts of C cannot crush down A. Are you one suggesting one-way crush down is possible?
 
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You are SOOOOO right. Yet here you are trying to point out that in your models (which had NO SCALING in them) that the washers failed to make it collapse.

Since you DIDNT bother with things like how scaling down, it would create massive problems, your model IS INVALID to be able to say, see... the models show it doesn't work.

don't you get that?
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Well then why did 1 washer on each toothpick 1 inch apart stop 20 washers that fell 12 inches faster than toothpick without washers? If anything I bet a created a situation more likely to collapse all of the way than the WTC. My toothpicks didn't get stronger all of the way down like EVERY SKYSCRAPER HAS TO. But you people don't insist on knowing the amount of steel on every level of the towers.

You can just BELIEVE things on the basis of inadequate data.

psik
 
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Well then why did 1 washer on each toothpick 1 inch apart stop 20 washers that fell 12 inches faster than toothpick without washers? If anything I bet a created a situation more likely to collapse all of the way than the WTC. My toothpicks didn't get stronger all of the way down like EVERY SKYSCRAPER HAS TO. But you people don't insist on knowing the amount of steel on every level of the towers.

You can just BELIEVE things on the basis of inadequate data.

psik

no instead you took a toothpick and used it as your support while adding weight.

BECAUSE YOU DIDN"T DO ANY SCALING, your model is invalid because 1. the toothpicks would need to be MUCH weaker, and the mass of the washers would need to be MUCh greater if you bothered to scale it.

it would be like me building a stupid 1/4 inch steel beam and then using thermite to cut it horizontally and saying "SEE, I proved that 9/11 was an inside job" An INVALID model is useless.
 
Model is full scale! 1:1. Any size.

Anyone suggesting that you can remove all columns between parts C and A and then drop C on A is a fool. C is locally damaged before that, parts of C and loads should drop off an the remaining parts of C cannot crush down A. Are you one suggesting one-way crush down is possible?

That is not the topic.

and

Model is full scale! 1:1. Any size.

does not make any sense.
 
no instead you took a toothpick and used it as your support while adding weight.

BECAUSE YOU DIDN"T DO ANY SCALING, your model is invalid because 1. the toothpicks would need to be MUCH weaker, and the mass of the washers would need to be MUCh greater if you bothered to scale it.
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I was not trying to do a direct comparison to the WTC. I was comparing toothpicks without washers to toothpicks with washers. I demonstrated that STATIONARY MASS SLOWED THE FALLING MASS DOWN more than just toothpicks alone.

The point was that the distribution of mass of the WTC NEEDS TO BE KNOWN to analyze its supposed collapse. SCALING OF MY DEMONSTRATION IS IRRELEVANT.

But how can anyone scale it if THEY DON'T HAVE THE DATA? What were the weights of the 12 different types of exterior wall panels? How many of each type of wall panel were there? You complain that I didn't do what can't be done without data and then complain when I ask about the data.

And I ask about the data right in the videos. What were the tons of steel and tons of concrete on each level of the towers? :D :D :D

psik
 
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I was not trying to do a direct comparison to the WTC. I was comparing toothpicks without washers to toothpicks with washers. I demonstrated that STATIONARY MASS SLOWED THE FALLING MASS DOWN more than just toothpicks alone.

The point was that the distribution of mass of the WTC NEEDS TO BE KNOWN to analyze its supposed collapse. SCALING OF MY DEMONSTRATION IS IRRELEVANT.

But how can anyone scale it if THEY DON'T HAVE THE DATA? What were the weights of the 12 different types of exterior wall panels? How many of each type of wall panel were there? You complain that I didn't do what can't be done without data and then complain when I ask about the data.

And I ask about the data right in the videos. What were the tons of steel and tons of concrete on each level of the towers? :D :D :D

psik


they weighed a lot
when things that weigh a lot fall down in the way they werent designed to
chaos ensues
get over it
planes plus fire equals (rule10)ed up (rule10)

(i think i drank too much at my friends engagement party lol :D)
 
they weighed a lot
when things that weigh a lot fall down in the way they werent designed to
chaos ensues
get over it
planes plus fire equals (rule10)ed up (rule10)

(i think i drank too much at my friends engagement party lol :D)
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But what it hit didn't weigh a lot. It didn't have a lot of inertia to be overcome.

That "chaos ensues" is just like that idiotic"collapse was inevitable" crap from the NIST.

But I am sure you can't get over it.

psik
 
Also, it is rather difficult to scale things such as gravity.

Those darn constants...

Scale gravity? A few of you need to take basic physics classes again!

If you drop a bowling ball and a golf ball from the same height, at the same time, which will hit the ground first? You can even ignore air resistance for this example as it plays a very minor role.
 
Scale gravity? A few of you need to take basic physics classes again!

No, you need to progress a little beyond basic physics.

The structural strength of a building depends on the cross-sectional area of the support columns. Let's start with a building that has a safety factor of two. Build another, in which you multiply the width, depth and height of the building by six, and the structural strength increases by thirty-six times, but the weight increases by two hundred and sixteen times. Its weight is now three times higher than the structure can support; the building will fall down. However, build the second structure on the moon, where gravity is one-sixth of that on Earth, and the weight is now only thirty-six times that of the original building. Since the structural strength is thirty-six times higher, the safety factor is now back to two, and the building will stand up. That's what Hokulele means by "scale [things such as] gravity"; it can be used (in theory) to compensate for square-cube laws, but in practice there are one or two fairly major difficulties.

Dave
 
To model an impact of a structure C (WTC 1 top part) with a similar structure A (WTC 1 btm part) is quite easy and has nothing to with gravity or scale! Just ensure that C and A have similar structure and that A can carry C on top of A in a gravity field (just a simple test to ensure that C and A are load carrying structures) and that A = 10C. After that you can forget gravity and scale and proceed as follows on horizontal ground:

Put A on ground and fix it against a wall at one end! Then put some wheels on C so it can roll on ground. Now you can impact C into A at various velocities as you chose!

At low velocities you will probably notice that A and C deforms at impact and that C bounces back.

At higher velocities you will notice that weak elements in A and C fail, i.e. that C is getting damaged (the wheels may fall off!).

At a certain velocity you will notice that C is completely destroyed while big parts of A remain intact. Similar things will happen if you drop C on A ... in any scale and at any g.
 

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