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Why Linux will never replace Windows (for now)

Might I mention once again that when I chose 'default' installation with SuSE Linux,


it formatted my HARD DRIVE? :eek:


I tossed it in favor of Red Hat immediately afterwards.
 
Keep us posted on how it goes. The book will definately help. If you purchase a Linux distro you do get a book but it is hard to deliver a manual when the software is downloaded.

With the help of your book were you able to change your screen resolution (it's a point and click exercise on Mandrake) and have you connected to the internet? There is a definate lack of documentation at your distro's web site.

Command line = DOS prompt. There should be a menu item to open a console or terminal window. Kommonly kalled konsole on KDE.
 
Another simple option is to install CYGWIN under windows. Especially if you just love those linux command line tools, like sed, grep, gcc, wget, etc.

This will get your feet wet without doing anything rash.

A VMWare installation goes a long way, if you can afford it. Then you can install whatever you like and run it in its own private playground on your computer. You can grant it access to your selected native files, especially if you want to do linux work while still having access to windows junk, such as working on a server while testing it in a windows client. It will also host different windows versions under windows, so it's VERY handy for customer support, document writing and QA.
 
Open Source Software, including Linux, does tend to have even worse documentation than propietary software like Windows. Simply, this is because Microsoft employs people to write documentation but in the OSS world, someone has to offer to do it for free. Since not many people enjoy writing documentation, the quality suffers.

However, there is another side to this. What the OSS community offers is excellent on-line support.

Anyone trying Linux should sign up to a Linux support site such as www.linuxquestions.org. You need to learn how to ask questions effectively (just like to need to learn how to understand technical manuals), but it's not difficult and you'll probably get better, cheaper and faster answers than you would from either manuals or a company's support site.
 
iain said:
Open Source Software, including Linux, does tend to have even worse documentation than propietary software like Windows. Simply, this is because Microsoft employs people to write documentation but in the OSS world, someone has to offer to do it for free. Since not many people enjoy writing documentation, the quality suffers.
Click to expand...

It depends. Any chances to the kernel are thoroughly documented. Many projects through sourceforge are documented with an almost anal attention to detail. Others, like GIMP, seem to lack in the documentation department. It's a mixed bag.


However, there is another side to this. What the OSS community offers is excellent on-line support.

Anyone trying Linux should sign up to a Linux support site such as www.linuxquestions.org. You need to learn how to ask questions effectively (just like to need to learn how to understand technical manuals), but it's not difficult and you'll probably get better, cheaper and faster answers than you would from either manuals or a company's support site.
Click to expand...

Also the newsgroups (groups.google.com), listservs, etc.

In addition, there's an actualy Linux community out there. Chances are pretty good there's a LUG (Linux User's Group) or something similar in your area; these folks are always happy to help. Check out
http://www.linux.org/groups/ or Google for one in your area.
 
Most of the questions I've had to ask have already been asked by someone else. Therefore, usually the answer is "out there" for a search to find.

HOWEVER, I must correct a statement: it's not that there is a shortage of people who are willing to document linux: there is a shortage of people who understand the system well AND are any good at making documentation, and THEN there's few of them who want to be bothered with doing a whole week's worth of typing (that nobody will end up reading anyway).

The problem with "documentation" is, "document what"?

I mean, sure, someone could write a "configure your firewall" document, but people have written big, thick books about network theory, how the various protocols work, and the targets for what firewalls block are evolving.

One of the ongoing pains is Samba documentation, which is actually voluminous, but doesn't really help for most things, because nobody has bothered to simply provide a SAMBA front-end that looks and acts and configures just like the Windows file sharing, which it's for. Besides, every time a new version of Windows is released, M$ break Samba in some way that takes months to sort out. Fancy that.

At least MOST of my Linux problems have been sorted out by my not needing a dial-up connection. This was complicated by Linux distros like Redhat containing no fewer than THREE incompatible dial-up configurators, and no hint as to which was the appropriate one to use. A lot of linux's "Bad Rap" is all these clowns who package it up and sell it, and do a horrible job of it.

Provide ONE way to do everything, and document it thoroughly. If the user is adventurous, and wants to try other (custom) things, that's their own problem. For everyone else, the thing should work out of the box, and come with that "value added" documentation that can be seperately copyrighted and make their distro worth the money.

After all, you can freely download most versions of Linux as ISO images, without the technical support, manuals, etc.
 
The continuing saga...

Spent a few days reading my way through Linux in a Nutshell, which --DID-- explain a lot of things, but nothing that was useful as far as working out the video resolution problem. One interesting passage confirmed what I suspected -- Nutshell is NOT for Linux newbies, but serves as a reference for more experienced people who need a prompt for their memories or some general pointing in the right direction. No big loss -- the book was on sale at Fryes for $19, and will serve as an excellent reference for whichever Linux distro I finally manage to get up and running.

So, following the line of logic that maybe if I reinstalled ThizLinux from the distribution CD that came with the machine, then perhaps it just might recognize the hardware, I tried booting from the CD. I tried the Simple English installation, which ground along for a while, then died a sudden death with several messages that it couldn't recognize diddly-squat for the monitor or video system. Oh, well, at least it didn't trash the original install. As a side note, I find it a bit disturbing that the so-called system recovery and installation CD doesn't work with the hardware it was shipped with.

So then I tried the "special" install option from the CD. Same general response, just some more detail in the error messages.

Overall opinion at this point is that ThizLinux really bites the big one.

Lindows is starting to look a lot more appealing. The boxed distribution was at Fryes, but it was the 4.0 version, while 4.5 is the latest release. I may order one to see what happens. They make claims that it installs easily.

Spent some time browsing the Red Hat web site. Pardon my comments, but it seems that Red Hat is beginning to adopt the Microsoft business model.

Anyhow, flushed with defeat (for the moment), it's time to consider the next moves in a thoughtful manner.

More as it occurrs.

Regards;
Beanbag
 
RedHat are very much separating out the "professional" distro of their product from the free-to-air stuff.

In a nutshell (!), the "professional" product will be boxed, have scheduled release dates and specific documented abilities and phone support and such like...at a price.

The "take your own chances" product, called Fedora, is still free, and is being kept to the anarchistic but innovative model of "everyone kicks in, free UNIX" distro. Schedule? We don' need no stinkin' schedule! Phone support? Starbucks and dial-a-pizza.
 
Checked out the local Linux users group on the web. Seems they have a Linux Install Project, where you bring in a machine and they help you install Linux on it. Think I'll drop in at the Feb meeting to scope things out. Don't know exactly what flavor Linux they install, but at least there's a native guide to help the newcomers along.

Regards;
Beanbag
 
Beanbag said:
Checked out the local Linux users group on the web. Seems they have a Linux Install Project, where you bring in a machine and they help you install Linux on it. Think I'll drop in at the Feb meeting to scope things out. Don't know exactly what flavor Linux they install, but at least there's a native guide to help the newcomers along.

Regards;
Beanbag
Click to expand...

Oh yeah. The local LUG and ALE (Atlanta Linux Enthusiasts) both have the occasional InstallFest.

If your local Linux types are anything like the ones here and in Pennsylvania, I'll bet you'll have your pick of distros. :)
 
Its funny how people's experiences can vary. I started using Linux about five years ago. One of the reasons was the tremendous documentation. All available online. I always felt that MS Win had a serious lack of documentation unless you were willing to shell out cash at the book store. (Yes, I'm a cheap b**st*rd.) It is true that some of the docs aren't great and you have to learn how to find and use them.

I literally started on Linux at the documentation section at linux.org. I've learned that google is invaluable. I rely heavily on the man and info pages that are installed with the system.

You are having trouble setting up your monitor. By googling for 'changing screen resolution linux' I get many hits and quickly have this page . At the bottom of this page I learned of a new way to configure X. What works one one distro usually works on another. I often find myself referencing the Debian docs even though I use Mandrake.

I have played with many of the distros. The only one I haven't made work was Gentoo and I probably just gave up too quickly because I was lazy. For desktop use I find Mandrake to be the best. It has the Mandrake Control Centre which will allow you to point and click your way through a very easy to use interface that allows you to configure virtually every aspect of the machine. It also has one of the largest collections of software and if you look into the contrib section at one of the ftp sites you will find even more.

One tip for installing Linux is to make sure you install all the developement tools. Even if you never intend to write any programs it will be there if you want to install something from source.

Keep trying, it is worth it in the end. I now barely ever touch my computer except to use it. I'm never fixing the problems of the latest virus or IE quirk. It just keeps working and working exactly how I want it to.

Good Luck.
 
jimlintott said:
You are having trouble setting up your monitor. By googling for 'changing screen resolution linux' I get many hits and quickly have this page . At the bottom of this page I learned of a new way to configure X. What works one one distro usually works on another. I often find myself referencing the Debian docs even though I use Mandrake.
Click to expand...

It's one of those Eureka! moments. Xconfigurator did the trick and let me bring the display up to 1024x768, and without frying the monitor. After rebooting, I brought up a couple of the ThizConfig screens that wouldn't show completely, and as I suspected, there are some options and controls that I couldn't get to before.

Maybe now I can get to work on the non-functional Ethernet/Internet connection. It will have to wait a couple of days -- annual inventory time at work this weekend, and I'm brain-fried as it is. In addition to the usual post-Xmas rush, we've got a new hire and I'm the designated trainer for the Diagnostic group (such as it is).

Thanks for the point in the correct direction.

Extremely grateful for the help;
Beanbag
 
Surpised no-one has mentioned the how-to's for documentation.

Any decent distro should allow you to install them or already have them sitting on your HD (look in /usr/doc/).

look at

http://www.tldp.org/

and follow the links.

Myself, I use Debian so everything is a battle, but once you get it to work you do get a nice glow of satisfaction on working something out like I just did when I had to when my PS/2 adapter broke and had to use it on a USB port.
 
The current state of affairs...

Spent some more time swearing at the Linux machine's monitor today, attempting to get the internet connection up and running. Made some advances (I think), but still didn't have any success.

I used the ThizConfig menu to set up for DHCP, saved everything, and rebooted. During the reboot, there was a notice that the ethernet connection failed it's configuration (something I never noticed before). KDE came up. I tried hitting a few web sites from Konqueror, just got error boxes saying "Unknown Host" plus the URL for the site I tried to go to.

I get the following information from running ifconfig in a terminal window:

lo link encap: local loopback
inet addr:127.0.0.1 mask:255.0.0.0
up loopback running mtv:16436 metric:1
RX packets:68 errors:0 dropped:0 overruns:0 frame:0
TX packets:68 errors:0 dropped:0 overruns:0 carrier:0
collisions:0
RX bytes:4712 (4.6 kb) TX bytes:4712 (4.6kb)

This is what I transcribed from the terminal window -- apparently Linux has yet to discover a cut-and-paste function, or has it implemented under some non-obvious name.

It appears from the above info that the ethernet interface is working, and the router light comes on, indicating that something functional is plugged in at the other end of the line. I suspect it has something to do with needing to put in some kind of IP address in the broadband setup menu in ThizConfig.

BTW, is there some way to route terminal output to a printer? In DOS and CP/M, all you had to do was press Ctrl-P. Not sure if there's a similar function in Linux. I'd like to get a hardcopy capture of all the stuff that streams up during a boot. Or does it all get stored somewhere in a bootlog file? If so, how do I get to it? (remember, I'm REAL stupid here, Linux-wise).

Tomorrow's challenge is setting up a printer. I've got an ancient Panasonic dot-matrix printer, Centronics interface, that should do for text-only output. I found a set of instructions online for setting up a printer under Red Hat, so maybe they'll work here.

More as it happens.

Regards;
Beanbag
 
Oh, yeah -- forgot to post an opinion:

I've spent two weeks trying to get where I would normally be in fifteen minutes with a Windows install, and STILL haven't gotten there. I will agree that there is a lot of documentation for Linux out on the web -- the problem is that it's all written in geek-speak. No "regular" person in a non-computer field would want to try to decipher it all, especially when it makes reference to some term where you have to go to another page, which then sends you to another page for yet another term or operation, and so on.

My initial statement stands: Linux will never replace Windows until a non-technical person can get it installed and configured in less than an afternoon. The only reason I'm still beating on it is because ... well, I really don't know why. Maybe I just don't want to let it win. Maybe it really is a good OS, once I get it shaken out and can concentrate on learning to use it, rather than just getting it to connect correctly. It's like having a car that won't start, or maybe will run but stalls out at random intervals. I want to use it, not fiddle with it.

Linux compares strongly with Windows 3.1 -- you've got a graphical interface running on top of a low-level OS. And like Windows 3.1, getting everything set up correctly is a cast-iron b*tch, requiring a lot of low-level OS commands and programs. XP, at least, managed to get (most) everything integrated into a single package.

The local Linux users' group meets in a couple of weeks. I'm hoping their interactive warm-body help can get things moving, just as all the information I've gotten from you all has helped greatly. You know, it just might be that sense of community that makes me want to stay with Linux.

Regards;
Beanbag
 
I've been helping a newbie with Win XP and trust me they are far more lost than you are.

Your NIC isn't working. 127.0.0.1 is a loop back device. Same as on a Win box (ping localhost on a windows machine and you'll see what I mean). The output of ifconfig should list two interfaces, the loopback device (127.0.0.1) and eth0 (the first NIC in the box).

The command dmesg will output all the boot messages. Look for when eth0 is brought up. I'm a little surprised that a preconfigured machine didn't have ethernet working out of the box. Networking is one of the strengths of the system.

I thought you said you were familiar with DOS. You can pipe the output (just like you did with DOS) using the > and | symbols. dmesg > lpr should send it to your printer or alternately dmesg > afilename.foo will write it to a file (>> would append a file).

Copy and paste in Linux is usually highlight the text, place your cursor where you want and click the center mouse button to paste (real quick and easy) the ctrl keys z x c v do the usual thing. Copy and paste is certainly supported by konsole in KDE.

I'm becoming quite unipmressed by this ThizLinux setup you have as I have found Linux much easier to install than just about any other system except DOS (format c: \s).

Here is a link to the ethernet howto

We'll get you going but a preconfigured box should be preconfigured. Believe me that most end users would be just as out to lunch if you gave them a box and a MS Win install disk. I have spent hours trying to make a NIC work on Windows that Linux just recognised and ran.

Good Luck.
 
I have the feeling that "ThizLinux" (could you guys have thought of a stupider name?) is secretly funded by Microsoft. How else could such a craptastic distribution get such a hold on the the super-low-end marketplace?
 
Originally posted by jimlintott
Your NIC isn't working. 127.0.0.1 is a loop back device. Same as on a Win box (ping localhost on a windows machine and you'll see what I mean). The output of ifconfig should list two interfaces, the loopback device (127.0.0.1) and eth0 (the first NIC in the box).

Good to know. There was a "failed" message during the boot-up for eth0.

The command dmesg will output all the boot messages. Look for when eth0 is brought up. I'm a little surprised that a preconfigured machine didn't have ethernet working out of the box. Networking is one of the strengths of the system.

I thought you said you were familiar with DOS. You can pipe the output (just like you did with DOS) using the > and | symbols. dmesg > lpr should send it to your printer or alternately dmesg > afilename.foo will write it to a file (>> would append a file).

I'm familiar with pipes and redirecting i/o. I figured Linux might have them, just didn't know they'd use the same characters.

Copy and paste in Linux is usually highlight the text, place your cursor where you want and click the center mouse button to paste (real quick and easy) the ctrl keys z x c v do the usual thing. Copy and paste is certainly supported by konsole in KDE.

That would be useful if I had a three-button mouse. The machine came with a 2-buttom mouse with a (presently) non-functional scroll wheel. I'm just used to dropping the Edit menu and finding Cut, Copy, and Paste options. Didn't find them in the terminal window I was using (think it was Konsole).

I'm becoming quite unipmressed by this ThizLinux setup you have as I have found Linux much easier to install than just about any other system except DOS (format c: \s).

I'll have to agree with you on that one. The whole idea of buying a packaged system was so I wouldn't have to go through all this mess. I was careful not to commit too much money to where I'd lose my objectivity if things started to go awry. At the very worst, the hardware itself would make a useful "expendable" DOS or Windows system for hooking in external devices for other projects.

Here is a link to the ethernet howto

Thanks. I skimmed it briefly before posting this reply, and added it to my "Linux Stuff" favorites.

We'll get you going but a preconfigured box should be preconfigured. Believe me that most end users would be just as out to lunch if you gave them a box and a MS Win install disk. I have spent hours trying to make a NIC work on Windows that Linux just recognised and ran.

My (limited) experience has been just the opposite. I converted a few machines from USB Ethernet dongles to Linksys PCI cards by just plugging them into the motherboard and loading the drivers from the accompanying CD. Possibly, that's why I'm kinda bumfuzzled right now. If something works correctly right out of the box, you really haven't learned anything, have you? Of course, my experience with networking has been similar to the proverbial old lady and her car -- she just gets in and drives. Me? I just cable'em together and run the Home Networking Wizard, and it seems to work.

Good Luck.

Well, if nothing else, I've learned how to format text in my replies. They say that when you quit learning, it's time to shut the lid.

Regards;
Beanbag
 
LFTKBS said:
I have the feeling that "ThizLinux" (could you guys have thought of a stupider name?) is secretly funded by Microsoft. How else could such a craptastic distribution get such a hold on the the super-low-end marketplace?
Click to expand...

When the only detailed instructions that came with the machine were how to dump ThizLinux and install Windows, I should have cut and run. The good news is that I have an excellent opportunity to make a fool of myself in public.

You gotta start somewhere and make your own mistakes. At least the hardware's reuseable, and I may ( more likely --will-- ) dump ThizLinux and move to a better distribution. Lindows looks a little too predigested for me, and having to subscribe to their Click and Run warehouse for software seems a little self-defeating. I mean, after all, you go Open Source for good, low or no cost software.

I've got the North Texas Linux Users' Group meeting coming up in a couple of weeks, and assuming I'm not working that Saturday, I'll be there to ask questions and seek advice.

Regards;
Beanbag
 
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